A RET/PVE Paladin DPS Guide

I found an interesting guide that focuses in excelling as a RET/PVE DPS Paladin in raids.

What Uther did not tell you
A guide to Paladin PVE/DPS in The Burning Crusade
By Hagrin of Nathrezim

We as Paladins of the Silver Hand are always lead to believe our only role in a raid is to stand back and heal the other party members, since the dawning of WoW back in 2004 that was always the case. Recently as we all know an expansion called The Burning Crusade changed all of that, Blizzard adopted the extremist way of engineering the Paladin for the game. Now if you are a Holy Paladin if gear/spec the right way you will only be great if not superb at healing, at the same time if you go for the Protection tree you will be awesome for tanking since now we share the same gear as a warrior therefore the stamina/defense issue we had before is gone. I will make a tanking guide in the future, for now we will focus on PVE/DPS as a RET/PVE Paladin.

NOTE: This in no way is intended for PVP, PVP involves many other aspects of the game which we will not cover here.

First off, to understand how a MELEE based class can DPS we must understand the mechanics of this same concept. The melee DPS thrives each time it lands a hit, landing a hit enables for any other ability, proc, etc to kick in, this being said the primary “PIPELINE” of melee dps is +HIT, look at it as a pipe, the thicker the pipe the more flow goes trough.

Now, as we all know there is a cap in hit, its 5% vs mobs of the same level and increases 1% each level, pay attention: players across the forums state that the highest level mobs including raid bosses is 73, if this is true then you only need 8% to hit at most with a 2 hander, therefore you can get it all in gear and not spec 8 points into prot for precision or get 5% and spec 8 points into prot for precision, i have my own conjurings in boss levels so i tend to stack more +hit than necesary, but this is a personal thing… Once you have ur 8% covered you then stack up AP and crit WITHOUT sacrificing the + hit ok?

Understanding this enables us to see how melee dps works, the more hits you land, the more procs/crits/specials you get in, this all applies to the RET/PVE paladin as well as to fury warriors, rogues, melee shammys etc.
I will list out the PRIORITY of stats in wich you need to gear yourself:

1.- +hit (5% is the cap vs a lvl 70 mob, 8% vs a lvl 73 mob)
2.- Attack Power (STR – Each STR = 2 Attack Power)
3.- Critical Strike (AGI – Each AGI at lvl 70 = 0.7 Critical Strike Rating)
4.- +Spell Damage (It is not as important as Attack Power but helps a bit NOTE: Do not sacrifice any of the other stats above this one for more +spell damage)
5.- Mana (INT – Granted the spec I will give you in this guide will help you a lot to conserve mana, it is always good if you can get extra mana WITHOUT sacrificing any of the top stats)
6.- Stamina (STAM – Yeah we wear plate, but having hp in case we pull agro “I almost always do :S” is good)
7.- Mana Regen (SPI/MP5 – Last but not as important is mana regen, again the spec I will give you will enable you to effectively dps with minor mana)

Now that you know what stats too look for in gear comes the spec…
CLICK HERE

This spec has helped me prove myself to all the non believers in my server that now are believers LOL
This spec enables you to conserve mana while getting the most DAMAGE output a paladin can get regardless of spec. This spec is NOT FOR PVP, it has no defensive qualities and/or healing/resilience upgrades.

How do I gear? Since I already gave you the stat priority if you want to take a peek at the gear I am using at the moment well you can ARMORY me in wow website. Simply go to the armory, type in HAGRIN of NATHREZIM and I will come up, I am the only one in all of wow, but just in case some wise ass copies my name just pick the lvl 70 paladin from Nathrezim.

What is the best weapon choice?
Obviously the 2 hander is the best choice for a RET/PVE paladin, If you are a Human make sure it’s a Mace or a Sword (The + to weapon skill increases crit rate and no longer is affected by glancing blow as the old formula – info provided by Aryxymaraki of server Earthen Ring)
What to look for in a 2 hander? Simple!:

1.- Top end and Speed – A slower weapon with higher top en has been proven to hit harder on the long run as well as max out the procs in SoC (info provided by Aryxymaraki of server Earthen Ring)
2.- STATS – As noted above, look for the stats in order as I presented before.
3.- Equip abilities – These fall under the stat priority as well BUT if a proc is involved procs are always good… They can be activated from your specials and your SoC procs so it will be added DPS

As far as enchant goes for your 2H that’s entirely up to you, if you are lacking in AP go for savagery, of you are lacking in crit go for agility, if you like burst dps go for Crusader (some speculate it waqs fixed to reflect the actuall AP increased since last patch).

How do I want to grp in a raid if given the option?
This one is simple… The best classes they can stick in there with you in your party in a raid would be Shadow Priest and Melee Shamman, why? Simple. The Shadow Priest will keep your mana up so you can go all out (yes consecration, exorcism if undead or demon, etc.), the melee shammy will give you heroism (bloodlust in horde) and WINDFURY!!!
Why is Windfury so great for RET/PVE pallys? We use 2 handers as preferred dps weapon, the damage from a 2 hander scales A LOT in a crit, the more swings the more crits etc, it is amazing how much more output you can get with this and heroism together, not only that… SOC DOES PROC OF WINDFURY!!!
Now if you cant get this excellent party arrangement you will STILL do fine in the raid dps…

Should I use CONSUMABLES? For the first raids that you will have to prove yourself as a DPSER don’t… Because ignorant players will say it was the consumables even though mages, locks, etc always use consumables for added dps. After you are accepted as a DPSER go ahead and get some extra goodies just to smoke your mages some more lol.

Now, here is a simple FACT of Paladins that most people (game ignorant people) tend to get mixed…
+spell damage IS NOT the main source of paladin RET/PVE dps, whoever said this is wrong (should be taken out the back and shot, j/k lol). +spell damage is for CASTERS… WE ARE NOT CASTERS… NEVER WHERE AND NEVER WILL BE, WE ARE A MELEE ORIENTED CLASS FOR DAMAGE, for healing yes we are casters, that’s another story… BUT FOR DPS WE ARE MELEE NOT CASTERS…
GET THIS IN YOUR HEADS PALADINS, WE ARE NOT CASTERS FOR DAMAGE, WE ARE MELEE PERIOD…

Sorry for stressing out this point a lot lol, its cause of ignorant paladins like the +spell damage ones that we look like a half assed dps class.

Follow my teachings and I am positive you will succeed in being great dps and give more utility than any other dps class in a raid, use this information to prove why having a paladin RET/PVE DPS is better than a straight DPS class that DOES NOT BRING ANY BENEFIT TO THE RAID (rogue/hunter LOL)
If they ask simply state:

1.- I can keep an extra 3% to crit on the target at all times for all types of dps, melee, ranged and caster.
2.- I have an aura that adds 10-12% to healing to any target in my grp (scalable, its amazing how much it adds)
3.- I can keep all 3 essential seals on the target with crusader strike (wisdom, light and crusader improved)
4.- I wear plate and can off-tank if needed and don’t die as fast as a clothie if I pull agro
5.- I don’t have a casting time therefore I have a much more chance to cause damage.
6.- AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST! I CAN DO AS MUCH OR DECENT DAMAGE AS YOUR TOP DAMAGE CLASS/PLAYER

All these facts are TRUE and pretty simple to understand, unless the person you are talking to is an ignorant player or what i like to call a “pre tbc player”(which almost always are mages and hunters lol, weird)

Well my fellow RET/PVE DPS Paladins if you ever need any info or have any questions regarding anything of this guide or paladin in general you can always talk to me on my server, just make an alt on Nathrezim Alliance and send me a tell HAGRIN or ELANTU or and I will gladly answer all of your PVE MELEE DPS questions.

Have fun owning the “DPS Classes”

Hagrin – lvl 70 RET/PVE Paladin on Nathrezim

Source: WoW Paladin Forums

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131 Responses to “A RET/PVE Paladin DPS Guide”


  1. 1 Supafamous May 3, 2007 at 12:07 pm

    As a lvl 70 paladin who spent most of his career ret, it just isnt viable in end game. I dont know why they even made the ret versions of tier 4, 5, 6 armor. Since you have to be a hardcore raider to get that armor and no guild is going to take you as a ret pally. Good like finding a group for any 5 mans even as a ret pally. The only believers in ret pallys are ret pallys, plain and simple. I personally think the ret pally can be viable, but it’s viability is extremely gear dependent. I would like to use my tier 4 tokens to get the ret gear and then once gaining most of the pieces switching and comparing DPS to the other classes. I doubt my GM will go for it though.

  2. 2 Piqu - Earthenring (EU) May 11, 2007 at 4:26 am

    Ahhh.. i totally agree with pallies being imba dps.. Maybe not the best choice in 10 man raiding places but in 25 man they can be used imo..

  3. 3 GaLLahaD May 11, 2007 at 7:48 pm

    Like in the real world, many revolutionary ideas where once challenged by doubters and skeptics. But in the long run, all these ideas will generally be accepted.

    hail and good luck to those who are out there to prove the old world wrong!!!

    The Retadin’s time will come.

  4. 4 Vaerlin May 18, 2007 at 5:46 pm

    I’m not certain of this, but still trying to figure out if this has changed. Take if from an raiding hunter vet. You used to need more than +8% to never miss a boss-level mob (3 levels higher).

    Your chance to miss is twofold. You have a base 5% chance to miss an even level mob. I believe this increases 1% per level of the mob.

    70 -> 70 = 5%
    70 -> Boss(lvl 73) = 8%

    Now, there are also the standard combat mechanics.

    Every point of defense the mob has over your melee weapon skill gives the mob:
    .04% chance to be missed
    .04% chance to block
    .04% chance to dodge
    .04% chance to parry

    This means that the boss (lvl73) with +15 defense over your weapon skill (assuming no modifiers) gives him 15*.04 = .6% more chance to be missed.

    So, if these assumptions are correct (It was this way before 2.0, but they’ve changed how skill rating above your max level works, so I’m not sure anymore) then you need a grand total of +8.6% to hit to never miss a boss-level mob.

    Now, rarely was it that anyone ran around with +9% cahnce to hit (unless you were a hunter on a tranq fight) because the stat was granted on gear in 1% increments before 2.0. Now that we have the hit rating system and gems, we can reach this theoretical limit exactly.

    There are discussions on if you can reduce your chance to miss to 0% or if there’s still a rare chance that you’ll miss. Like I said, I’ve yet to run tests in the new system.

    I’m sure there are some serious raiding rogues who can tell you if +skill rating wreapons and talents will reduce your chance to be parried/dodged/blocked, etc… But my hunter’s attacks are binary (hit or miss… or crit :p) so I don’t know as much about all that.

  5. 5 Russell Weber May 24, 2007 at 10:04 pm

    I’m having a hard time with your logics. How is holy damage not our strength? There is no defence for it, and considering that most paladins will spamm judgement of command it makes sense to atleast invest some into holy. As far as the beleaf that we arn’t a casting class, i agree but disagree. It’s because we can cast that makes a ret pally so great. Not only can we smack the crap out of you with a large weapon, but then we can start hitting you with holy damage next, if not at the same time. I agree though, ret palladins..no any paladin is a viable member to have to a group. I’ve been experimenting with instances and have used nothing but ret pallys as main dps, prot paladin as tank..[most ret with a good bit in prot, makes more sense ret = more agro.] and a healadin as a main healer. With five paladins in a group, you could practically go to sleep and not have to worry about anything, maybe it takes a tad bit longer but not much. Seeing the dps acomplished by two ret pallies in a group, it led me to question why anyone would take a warrior as melee dps over a pally. Now i have no idea what you ment by .”Smoking a mage.” but that’s some what laughable. A mage is ment to do more damage than you…period. I’ve seen some furry…very few warriors outdps a mage…but as far as a paladin out dpsing a mage..no, thats not gonna happen, not ever. Out dps a warrior any day of the week, and make a rogue run with his tail between his legs..hell…anything will make a rogue run. I’ve out dpsed warriors, hunters and have matched once with a rogue, but never came close to a mage, lock, or priest.

    Your priority should be
    str
    agi
    intell
    spell power

    I really don’t worry about pluss hit, i’d rather sacrifice that with more dps. My ret pally has a total of 2100 ap. I have a white crit of 2000 and a yellow crit of 1000-1800 [depending on if it's a judgement, crusader or command strike.]
    Another thing about pallies that most people don’t see is that ret pallies will crit in strings, once a pally lands a crit, more will soon follow, most likely in the order of “white crit, command crit, judgement crit, crusader crit.” with out..i forget the spell..the wing thing my string of crits will have a grand total of 7.4, with the wing thing..yeah tack on 20% which brings us too 8.6k in a total of 4 hits. Sometimes it misses but you can always make up for that later by spamming judgements and concecrating every living thing.

  6. 6 Gray May 25, 2007 at 9:34 am

    Any thoughts on if it is viable to play a Ret/PvE Paladin whilst leveling, say between levels 30-70 ?

  7. 7 GaLLahaD May 30, 2007 at 6:02 am

    Well, maybe we can’t out dps a mage, lock or priest but it doesn’t mean we can’t “smoke” them.

    The only reason we have a hard time against casters is because just like you said, “we never came close”…lol

    REPENTANCE holds the key!

  8. 8 Whitewolf May 30, 2007 at 9:26 am

    Gray, i’d say if you’re between 30-70 and are going to be soloing a lot…go Prot. Do some Aoe Grinding. Makes things go a helluvalot smoother. And, as long as you’re a decent player, it’s very easy to find groups. A lot of groups won’t accept a reti paladin because they’ve got a bad rep.

  9. 9 Pallum June 20, 2007 at 9:31 pm

    Wow. I haven’t quite gotten the guts to respec yet, but I have been gearing the way you showed and it has increased my output by a huge amount. Still working with my 40-0-21 spec so I can run Kara with the guild (till they see me dps anyways :P) as a healer but the extra attack power has increased my average white hit by almost 75 damage and my Command procs by over 100. Should be fun when I finally get to try it out with the spec. Great guide, very detailed and well put together. ^_^

  10. 10 Ahjen July 8, 2007 at 10:07 pm

    I have tended to follow a different route with my gear stat priority. It’s hard to say exactly what my priorities have been, but I almost never choose agility, the main reason being that paladin gear almost never has +agility on it. (look at the Tier for Retribution armor stats).

    This means that if you choose gear with +agility, you will almost never get +int or +spellpower. You will essentially be wearing warrior gear and will have a pitiful 4 – 5k mana.

    Some stats for my current gear:
    ~400 str
    ~8000 mana
    ~500 spell power

    For PvE this has done me very well. In 5-mans I can top damage meters, whether in PUGs or guild groups, if I am in a role where I’m only DPSing. I have topped some locks and mages, but not locks and mages who are both geared well and great players. I don’t expect I should be able to top them, even wearing all +melee crit gear.

    In the exact same gear I can provide excellent utility as both an off-tank and off-healer should things start to go wrong. I seldom run out of mana in a fight. This means I am DPSing to my fullest for the entire fight.

    Most people who play with me seem to be impressed with my DPS when I DPS, but I’ve found for raiding that I’m simply way more useful as a healer in Karazhan than anything else.

    One thing almost all of these “+melee crit pwns!!” Retribution guides seem to forget is that Holy damage is *almost never* mitigated. So even though our spells don’t have 100% +spell damage coefficients, the actual output from +spell damage gains is still significant.

    I am in the process of building a +melee crit set to see what the differences are. I expect that it will be superior in burst DPS, but not in staying power or utility. If it such a set could routinely out-DPS *good* mages (and especially locks) I would be very surprised, since no other classes seem to be able to do that. It seems to me that both sets of stat priorities have their places depending on the situation you’re in.

  11. 11 Mirishka July 10, 2007 at 3:56 am

    What you guys talking about spell damage are failing to understand is that Seal of Command procs are Holy damage yes, but its not ‘spell damage’ its melee damage.

    Everything in the Ret tree is Melee. Including effects that cause holy damage.

    You don’t raise your chance to crit on seal / judgement of command by raising your intellect. You raise it with standard mele crit rating and agility.

    Command is Melee, NOT spell.

    As a Ret pally the only thing spell damage is going to effect is Consecrate. Or Seal / Judgment of Righteousness, but if you are Ret you should be using Command not Righteousness…

    Think about it for a bit. How many times have you seen your Command proc be dodged, parried, or blocked? Probably quite a few. Why? Because it is a melee attack, not a spell.

    Ret pallies do not need +spell damage

  12. 12 Mirishka July 11, 2007 at 2:46 am

    PS – Talking about Seal of Command above. Judegement of Command may very well be spell based rather then melee, I have yet to find a reliable (Bliz) source of info one way or the other.

  13. 14 Tgif August 5, 2007 at 9:15 pm

    You’ve vindicated me on alot points here..ty.

    Also consider…as DPS and NOT a tank…can wear other armor than plate…say some nice mail with complimenting stats.

  14. 15 wazoo August 14, 2007 at 9:01 am

    You had me convinced this was the way to go until I noticed your talent spec in the Armoury is 0/49/12.

    Nothing wrong with that of course, but were you getting too much heat from raid groups to respec from a retadin?

  15. 16 Salud August 14, 2007 at 6:51 pm

    Nah, I personally like playing a tankadin than a retadin.

  16. 17 Mike September 8, 2007 at 6:05 am

    My spec is this http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/paladin/talents.html?5000000000000000000050005100000000000000000500535120033005301351
    It works great the only problem i have found when i do get into raids is that we cause so much freaking damage that we aggro like a mother. The ways i have found to deal with it is – threat meeter is a must. Have a one hander and shield macro ready and of course let the tank get some aggro first before jumping in there.

  17. 18 Daniel September 26, 2007 at 9:28 pm

    “use this information to prove why having a paladin RET/PVE DPS is better than a straight DPS class that DOES NOT BRING ANY BENEFIT TO THE RAID (rogue/hunter LOL)”

    Wrong, any descent rogue will provide alot more damage than the 3% crit benefit that pallys give to other melee, and even then, get a feral druid , you get more crit too…

    Anyways, hunters do help the raid DPS, if you knew about as much of any other class like you claim to know about pallies, you’d know that hunters are close to if not better than a feral druid in a grp with rogues/warr/sham when spec’d survival.

  18. 19 Jonas October 2, 2007 at 9:07 am

    To everyone on this site.. have you ever heard of the class “Rogue” ?
    The best dps in game ? (If specced correctly, and if skilled ofc)
    A rogue with decent kara epics, around 220 hit rating and either combat with daggers or combat swords can easily outdps any other class, even without other buffs besides poison.
    Simply start out by gaining 3 cp’s, use them to pop out SnD.. after that is done simply backstab/sinister strike (whatever your specialization is)
    over 50% of a rogue’s dmg comes from white hits/crits..
    I know everyone says “I can outdps anyone”, and im afraid im going to say the same, but whatever, i know it’s true, everyone who have raided with a decent combat rogue knows this..
    Im srry mages, locks, ret pallies (omfglolatyournoobness), shamans, and MM hunters.. you are just not good enough..
    I say MM hunters because BM hunters with their pet combined with the hunters own dps rules everyone.. thats the only exeption in terms of who’s the best dps in game

  19. 20 dan October 8, 2007 at 6:29 am

    jonas, you are what typifys all naysayers in wow and i have no time for any of you. You are uninformed and act on jealousy because other classes can do what you do and more. You just dont want to give dps pallies a chance and thats why you poo poo them before learning things like: a dps pally can provide the whole raid with 3% crit, the party with 6% extra heal effect, 10% to all stats, 2% additional damage to party, keep all 3 important judgements going replenishing health and mana to all, if agro is obtained plate will mean they wont die as easy as you, if bad agro then shield ,provide spot heals in tough parts if needed shield others such as whiney rogues and finally, and most likely the reason you want to shoot dps pallies down before they get to embarass you is that with a well designed group thier damage will rival yours. They get the most benefit of anyone from wf totem as it procs soc also. Any decent 10+ man groupshould have at least 1 shammy. On thier own a ret pally is admittedly weak compared to a rogue, but watch their contribution skyrocket exponentially in raid, while yours technically diminishes. That aside, who are you to tell anyone not to play a certain way if thats what they enjoy. Stop living pre tbc and learn how hybrids can help you.

  20. 21 dan October 8, 2007 at 6:31 am

    ps please dont attack spelling / grammar, i did this on my phone

  21. 22 dan October 8, 2007 at 6:38 am

    last ps, the 3% crit is all damage, melee and magic and applies to the whole raid not just the group. Just so y’all know

  22. 23 david October 10, 2007 at 2:26 pm

    I know everyone here is putting in their 2 cents, so I will as well. I play a ret-pally in my guild. Now I was initially allowed to do so out of the kindness of my guild leaders’ heart. Since that time, I have proved time and time again that having a ret-pally can greatly benefit the raid.
    I will never claim that ANYONE is ALWAYS better than anyone else. I have had times where I have taken first in DPS and where I have taken last. It really depends on what kind of mobs you are fighting. There are many melee friendly fights and just as many non-friendly fights.
    Also I think it is worth mentioning that the gear and the spec only supplements’ the player. They do not make it. You could have the best geared ret-pally and he might be a horrid player and take dead last, or you might have an excellent player with less than great gear who could tear it up! The player makes the class/spec.
    But I will say that I look for
    +Str (1STR 2AP)
    +Hit(I try to get about 8%)
    +Crit(To crit)
    +Spell damage (With my current spell damage, I do about 75/tick with level 1 consecration. Only 120 mana. Exorcism and crusader strike))
    I always keep a set of +hit rating items, as well as AP, crit, tanking, and my healing set. As a ret pally, you want to DPS and you can do so very well, but you need to be wiling to fill any role that is needed. I rarely ever have to do anything other than DPS, but it is good that you be ready to do so.
    The benefits are why now that my guild still allows me to raid. (Refresh on judgments, extra pally buff, +3% crit, +2% damage to my group, and my DPS) They could substitute me for another rouge, or hunter, but I have proven myself as useful as one of them. And we have Phenomenal players. People are not going to like ret-pallies. Plain and simple. If your guild does not think you can do it, prove it to them over and over by doing well. But do not get an attitude about it! You will giver the rest of us bad names.

    You can check out my toon. Ciaus on Arathor.

  23. 24 Whitewolf October 23, 2007 at 10:43 am

    Jonas is actually correct.
    A skilled, well geared rogue will beat any equal geared/skilled player.

    I have amazing warlocks, shadowpriests, mages – all fully kara/gruul geared that get utterly annihlated by rogue DPS.

    The way my raids work go something like:

    Rogues #1
    Warlocks #2
    and Shadowpriest/Mages rank #3. Hunters bring up a close 4th in all my raids.

    But, I also agree that Hybrids bring great utility to the raids. I myself am a Prot paladin – and have to fight for my position every time I go into a PUG – but I garuntee you I can out tank most Druids and Warriors. I actually have to, as of late, fight that Paladin tanks aren’t OP.

    Also, to the person who stated that ret paladins aren’t gear depedant…they really, really are. Comparable to other classes – the ret paladin almost HAS to outgear the instance to match DPS of other classes. The reason they help so much is the fact that they bring an additional buff, they bring additional dmg/crit to the other classes – and they can bring backup healing and so forth to the raid.

    Whitewolf
    Nazjatar, Horde

  24. 25 Lyle October 31, 2007 at 10:35 am

    He is holy now lol look him up… classic…

  25. 26 Tigg November 1, 2007 at 1:10 pm

    No…he is Ret…

    I’m sure he switches back and forth to meet his needs. He has an impressive Ret gear set, so I’m sure he still plays as Ret.

  26. 27 eddie November 9, 2007 at 2:05 pm

    yeah, but referring to the windfury buff, it is amazing as a ret pally. I was amazed at how much it boosted dps.

  27. 28 max November 13, 2007 at 2:48 am

    lol hunters bring up 4th? bah im in the top 2 every raid, and we have very well geared rogues, the mages and warlocks suck even tho they have the gear, i also got a ret pally and with windfury the dps is awesome other than that is mainly luck, ret pallys are best at pvp though for sure.

  28. 29 Rholand November 15, 2007 at 10:39 am

    Salud

    Pardon my noobness (my main is lvl 29) but I am confused about your spec. you have Avenger’s shield which requires 40 points in Protection tree, yet you only have 13 points in that tree. I also noticed that you have Fanaticism without Repentance (though it appears that Repentance is required before you can put points in Fanaticism).

    What did I miss? I love the idea of a PvE endgame Ret Pally. And what you say about focusing on melee damage makes sense but, the talent tree seems impossible.

    Could you explain?

    Thanks,

    Rholand on Draka

  29. 30 Salud November 15, 2007 at 11:56 am

    Ah, you’re looking at my current spec, which is protection. I tend to re-spec based on my guild’s needs (since I have the gear)

    Also keep in mind the guide was created prior to the new changes to the ret tree. I haven’t had the time to make the appropriate changes.

    -Salud

  30. 31 Rholand November 15, 2007 at 2:05 pm

    No, I am talking about the link in your original post. In Protection, I see points in Redoubt and Precision (8 points total), then at the very bottom you have 5 points in Avenger’s Shield.

    I know this sounds crazy but i just followed the link again and got the same thing. Would you mind checking your link to see if that is what you get? I am very interested in building a Ret Pally, but I don’t think I am viewing your build.

    Thanks for your patience,

    Rholand

  31. 32 eddie November 18, 2007 at 12:13 pm

    can’t get a 5 man pug as ret. seems the only other players that understand ret are shadow priests. had two different groups the other night, LF2m, and it was said “only thing we need now is dps and tank”, and i respond, “we have the dps, just need tank and healer”. realizing that im ret, they say some nasty remarks and leave group. this happens alot.

  32. 33 Darkshoter December 9, 2007 at 1:27 am

    I was wondering since hunters have a shooting rotation ad so does mages. What will be a nice attack rotation for Ret paladins that will give crazy dps.

  33. 34 t4/5 geared ret pally/warlock December 11, 2007 at 12:42 pm

    It’s funny how all these diehard rogue supporters believe that they will always top DPS charts.

    Obviously, you’re still stuck in the pre-BC mindset, where you think spamming sinister strike and keeping up slice and dice will cut it.

    Every class is different, yet every class is equal.

    I’ve seen well geared retribution paladins out dps tier4/5 warlocks and mages in Mag.

    I’ve seen a MM hunter top DPS on Lurker by a full 3%.

    I’ve seen rogues with incredible gear, and a massive ego get curbstomped on the dps meters, because they don’t know how to play their class.

    My point is, all classes are equal when it comes to DPS.

    All that depends, is the player’s skill, luck, and partially their gear.

    I’ve seen dimwitted rogues that don’t comprehend the importance of slice and dice, and I’ve seen dimwitted mages that don’t comprehend the importance of scorch.

    I’ve also seen many unlucky players, experience drawn out instances where they do not find those lucky crits (albeit their high crit chance).

    In the end, dps is 33.33% luck, 33.33% skill, and 33.33% gear.

    Your class does not matter.

    You fail if you believe otherwise, go uninstall and throw your computer out the window.

  34. 35 Consumed-human paladin nathreziem December 19, 2007 at 7:24 pm

    Well although I am not 70 a ret paladin could probably be pretty good at protectin the “clothers” cus they wear plate and they can switch into sword and shield

  35. 36 Shayne December 19, 2007 at 10:31 pm

    Meh. I have a level 64 Ret paladin on Smolderthorn. Whenever i try running an instance, i’m always told ” we don’t need ret DPS ” … to me, this is pathetic , and im sure many of you agree. Retribution paladins can, as mentioned, out dps many other ” PURE DPS ” classes with ease … assuming they know what they are doing, and are decently geared. I prove rogues my level wrong all the time, when we complete the instance and i ask for a DPS meter .. i come out on top of them 9/10 times.

    My GM is going to let me raid as a retadin .. to see how it goes. In my opinion , they are as valuable as any other DPS class in the game.

    Fiercediety — Bloodelf Paladin — Smolderthorn

  36. 37 Nate December 20, 2007 at 12:51 pm

    Your sockets have green gems…..

    You talk about maximizing dps but yet you are to cheap to put the full effort in your gear. Mark of a bad player.

  37. 38 Shayne December 20, 2007 at 10:06 pm

    And you’re talking to … Who?
    [ sorry bro, don't have gems yet .. ]

  38. 39 Minsom December 28, 2007 at 7:32 pm

    WOOT!! I did it!! I went home for a few days break from work and in those nine days I was able to re-invent myself as a Ret pally. I was so nervous when I first respecced and pulled out all the gear out of my bank to see what I had but after 8 days I ended up with a fair few epics (9 to be exact) and did a few instances to try and hone my skills and get use to the judgements etc. On the 9 day the guild pulled me into Kara to see what I can do, nervous where back again and was dreading that I was gona be out DPSed by the tank. After the 1st boss fight (Moroes) I was on top of the DPS meters, infront of a Mage and a enhancement shammy..WOOT!!…it was a very close match for DPS only like 1-2% between us but I was able to scrape 2700 AP and 28% crit and when everything proced and shammy buffs I was pumping 3100AP and 30% crit. I was able to hold second place and drop down to 3rd. I did not care what I was coming tbh I was jsut stoked with the grats and well dones I got from the raid group and guild…*sigh*…I am sooo hooked on doing DPS now, I love it..i still keep my healing gear with me and if no one wants it I will try stil upgrade that, but I can only off heal..still able to pull out 1500 +healing and 10k mana but lack the mana regen..bah thats ok..

    Anywho, as you can see I am stoked with what has been unlocked from the ret tree, I have alot to learn etc…but atm i can get 1800+ AP with just strength and 24% crit..not to bad me thinks..=D

  39. 40 Minsom December 31, 2007 at 8:27 pm

    I was wondering if I can get you to have a look at my spec and provide me with some feedback inregards to talent spread, stats etc and mayb gearing…love contructive critacism

    The main thing I would like to get looked at is my hit rating. With the current gear I have on is there anything (ie enchants, other peices of gear, sockers etc) that can improve on this or will it surfice?

  40. 41 darkopancev January 2, 2008 at 5:41 am

    Well i was enjoying this article, and felt this was a very intresting and well thought out argument for a much-maligned and under-appreciated class\spec…..until I got to the end which completely blew some credability by doing exactly what teh author was moaning about in terms of other players view of ret pallies – disparaging other classes without any real basis – “….a paladin RET/PVE DPS is better than a straight DPS class that DOES NOT BRING ANY BENEFIT TO THE RAID (rogue/hunter LOL)”

    I can’t really speak for rogues as I’ve never played one past level 20, but hunters don’t bring any benefit to a raid???!! Apart from CC, Expose Weakness (Surv Spec), Trueshot aura (MM), Ferocious Insp (BM – which incidentally stacks too).

    As I said, interesting article, shame they felt the need to throw a useless negative statement which kind of spoilt part of the argument for giving other classes a chance in raids. The word ‘ignorant’ is bandied about quite a lot in that article in regards to other classes views of ret pallies but that statement seems to be the very definition of it!
    You shouldn’t expect to get respect from others until you show them the same :o)

    I don’t doubt that the author does provide good DPS and utility, but I get really tired of hearing “my class does better DPS than any other”. We all know (or should know by now) that skill>class\spec\gear. I can honestly say that I’ve seen all DPS classes top the damage meters at one time or another, and I can also say that all classes have more utility in some situations than others. Part of the beauty of WoW is the variety in the game, about time we all realised that, stopped bitching and just enjoyed the game the way you want to play.

  41. 42 Salud January 2, 2008 at 2:49 pm

    I completely agree with you darkopancev and I may remove/rewrite some of the remarks that pose negativity because I do not want the author’s main point lost which is a retribution paladin is beneficial to a raid.

  42. 43 Minsom January 2, 2008 at 5:14 pm

    Yep I agree with Sal and Dark as well. Althought I hope you weren’t refereing to my post (coz that was the last 2 ><). If you are i apologise if I spoiled the valid arguments etc from the post. My intention was not to put down the other classes but more of a recollection of what I was able to achieve after months of reading and researching and finally getting a solid chance to play (duo to being away for work). Anyway, totally agree with you guys. It is not warranted to put down other classes purely from the fact that it is misunderstanding etc.

  43. 44 darkopancev January 3, 2008 at 4:51 am

    No, no I wan’t referring to you Minsom :o)

    I was in a bit of a bad mood yesterday (going back to work after Xmas\NY and all) and being as my first character was a hunter the comments in the original article kind of grated. Hunters, perhaps jutsifiably in some cases, also have a bad rep and that kind of thing just reinforces bad stereotyping.

    Anyway, a bit off topic but I’m experimenting on my lvl 32 pally with an AoE prot build at the mo, and I’m struggling to take down more than 3 melee at a time, and even then I’m getting low on health.
    I’m using Ret aura with BoSanctuary and Seal of Light with a one hnader and shield – getting a BS in my guild to attach a shield spike tonight to see if that helps.
    Looking at some of the videos that are out there on Utube etc I see pallies taking down 4 or 5 at a time with virtually no health or mana loss. I know very little about pallies atm so would be grateful if someone could give me some pointers.
    I cant get to armory from work, so I can’t link it but my pally is Firefax on Emerald dream EU

  44. 45 Minsom January 3, 2008 at 9:17 pm

    lol…np Darko..

    Inregards to ur question about ur Prot AOE spec, I haven’t had a chance to have a look at ur talent spread but I was able to have a look at the guide this blog offers and it is pretty much on the money to be able to take multiple mobs down. The only difference in my experience lvling my pally was that I was spread between holy and ret with only a few points spent in prot to get the shield buffs etc. The biggest thign for me was the use of the retribution aura and concecration as it allowd me to damage multiple mobs at one time ten finish them offr with melee attack.

    The other handy thing I had to my dispossal was my wife who was playing write next to me who was a tank who could hold aggro and I take down mobs..lol..I guess that isn’t an option for everyone. I’ve found the quickest way to lvl, is the Pally/Warrior combo, one can hold multiple tragets down and u DPS/AOE and heal as well.

  45. 46 Oko January 8, 2008 at 11:31 am

    Just to clarify on comments about rogues, I just wanted to share that THE rogue DPS spec (AR Combat swords) will not be beat. Rogues, like many have pointed out here, don’t bring much to a raid in terms of team benefits. Their sole purpose is to dps and perhaps interrupts if the situation calls for it. In that respect, they are extremely effective. Pretty soon here, AR is being removed from Prep which will affect their DPS but not as much as most think (isn’t that always the case though?)

    Bottom line, as a Ret Paladin, it’s not constructive to claim that you can outdps AR combat sword rogues because you cannot, assuming equal player skill. The math is all out there and it just isn’t possible. I’m not saying don’t rejoice when you top the damage meters, but please understand that whatever AR sword rogues were present were slacking.

  46. 47 Minsom January 9, 2008 at 3:17 am

    fair comment Oko..

    I guess from both sides of the fence there are arguements that will always be brought up in regards to DPS. With that being said, I think all parties need to learn to excercise a little bit more understanding about each spec and class. The biggest thing that gets under all paladins skin is the constant nit picking that be had to all. In some opinions if ur a paladin and ur not holy (and now prot) ur a waste of a raid space. I think as a paladin, I personally try to embrace the “Paladin Arch type” as a hybrid and that we are “Jack of all trades but master at none”, however regardless of what spec I chose to go I will try my hardest to be the best that I can be. Being constantly smashed with terms like “ZOMGRETNOOBARECRAP” etc, is very unhealthy due to the fact that you chose to play ur own game and its ur money that ur spending and time so therefore being “made” to (or expected to) spec as a “Healadin” (for example) is someone wrong. If you chose to play the healadin then full kudos for you, I too played the healbot for a long long time because that was my choice.

    To try sum up my endless ranting, I think a little bit more understanding is in order so that we can all learn the strengths and weaknesses of all class and their specs. And rather coin terms that will only be destructive, lets give credit where credit is due and embrace the strengths and provide constructive critacism on weaknesses.

    Min

  47. 48 Thandor January 26, 2008 at 11:12 am

    I like the post in regards to what to look for for ret. I have been playing my pally for 2+yrs and love him. At first i was mixed spec trying to do dmg. Then at or near lvl 60 before TBC I wen to holy and was very suprised at my healing. I ended up healing main in many five mans bt couldn’t keep up with the gear and play time needed to main heal 40 mans so I off healed in them.

    Thne came TBC and I respecced ret for lvling. Wow I never had so much fun. I did top DPS meter alot as we lvled and people were surprised. Well I found at lvl 70 the pure classes gear brings them to the forfront of DPS. I tryed Prot and did very good tanking but wanted to swing the 2 hander again. I am now ret again with my backp gear and enjoy pvp(getting that gear atm). I have gone into heroics and love having “odd” groups. Just last week we did heroic bot and brought a druid tank, me as ret dps, fire mage, warlock, and holy priest. We walked thru it. One wipe from an add pull but we all know that happens.

    Bigest thing I noticed was having people knowing to play their class and not focusing on say one target to dps. If the healer is attacked and you keep dping and the healer dies, your screwed. I was usually rdy with a repentance, hammer, or BOP to save someone as well a our taunt. This saved the raid many times and let the oter classes focus on thier jobs. I even backup healed after the preist was one shoted and we manged to live thru it. The props I got from doing DPS to steping back and spammming FOL was nice. people were impessed. As well I brought buffs, 3% crit, and 2% dmg which everyone noticed.

    I always wondered whats better. 30% more dps by not having the ret pally or the fact I can help through a heal in rough spots, BOP, stun, and taunt, as well as aura for the situation(fire, shadow, frost etc). A dead raid is a raid that is not dpsing, and the ret pally when played right keeps the dps pumping, even if its not his dps.

    P.S. The look on peoples faces I’m sure is funny when I am watching healbot in pvp and they get that heal from a ret noob vs him doing a CS or judging SOC.

    Worst part of WoW is ignorant players who make a poor name for the class. We are gear dependant moreso then others, but even if the dps is not at the top, when played right we are group savers, which maintains overall group/raid dps.

  48. 49 Kevanisavich February 1, 2008 at 9:07 pm

    Lol nice to know that I am not the only Retadin out there struggling with alienation. I was holy my entire career, even through leveling… This being my first toon and being post BC what did I know. Easier to get groups, but crap to level on your own (remembering I was a complete noob) it was a grind until 70.

    Utility class for sure, my first guild didn’t believe in Pally tanks and would not let our sole pally tank anything. Even though there were guilds finishing Kara with pally tanks and even taking them to higher content, our guild refused to see the value in a Pally tank so going ret wasn’t even a consideration. That lone Pally fought though, he never gave up and eventually did prove that he could tank (now this guild were a bunch of morons to be frank, they didn’t think Druids could tank either so…).

    Next guild I joined took me in as Holy but I was getting bored with Holy. I found it akin to watching TV, with 1600+ to heal and 11k mana you just stood at the back and healed your target, tossed heals on the raid when needed and cleansed… no brainer really there was none of the dancing that is involved in being a DPS class. I have had shammies come the other way, saying DPS is boring so meh..;)

    So I went Ret, I went Ret Hard and fast with the Axe of the Gronn lord and the helmet (blowing some 250 DKP in one night). I went with the blessing of my class leader (a real class act) and my GM (Another class act) who both rightfully told me its your toon go for it. The rest of the guild were not as quick to embrace me. Thank god my choice coincided with badges in Kara and heroic Dailies so that people were out there wanting to run “old” content again that wasn’t too challenging…

    Anyways long story short our guild has several 1K DPS’ers as we clear Lurker, Hydross and are preparing to down Al’ar this weekend so when I began appearing on the damage meter and raid reports people were a little more cautious and less likely to call me a loladin. Last night I was 5th in a 25 man raid (big deal right?), the first three were a mage, rogue and hunter and were within 100k of eachother on the instance (Hydross fight). The next 8 people were within 50k of eachother, and I was near the top of that pile.

    Now admittedly, I have my suspicions that maybe some of our locks, rogues and mages are mailing it in (spam scorch while raiding and watching tv and listen for the Stop DPS command) but still felt vindicated that I could achieve this height. Will Ret Pallys ever beat Rogues? Likely not, but again all a rogue is intended for is to wtf pwn everything, they “give” nothing back to the raid so with that benefit we lost some DPS, a fair trade IMO.

    Another point that doesn’t seem to come up here, is that Seal of Blood in my testing has been far superior to SoC… be interested if anyone else has seen that, just be aware don’t use it in the prince fight or you will have a small repair bill and a hefty sense of shame…:)

    Presently I am at 30% crit and 2050 AP self buffed, raid buffed mid fight I find myself at 36-37% crtit (depending whose playing with me) and 3500 AP. My guild never passes me on DPS and in fact our top DPSing rogues has defended me when the recommendation comes up to replace me for some real DPS “Why should we replace him when he is out DPSing most of our range”. It can be done, and if 2.4 has anything decent in gear upgrades it will get a little easier. Check me out, Uldum server, my spec is slightly unorthodox as I don’t have Kings (yeah 5 mans NEVER understand that) but it works for me. I am stacked all to shit on gear and have very few upgrades before BT left (new neck, ring and shoulder are all I am really farming for these days) but it is very fun to play and the challenge of proving everyone wrong was worth it, though after a late night raid I still tend to snap on peeps who call me the Retardin..:)

    Happy hunting.

  49. 50 Chris0600 February 2, 2008 at 6:46 pm

    Hey, i used to be a holy paladin in a SSC/TK guild. We used to take a ret paladin to every raid who was top dps every time,( and no our other dps did not suck) So just letting all those who think ya cant out dps priests, warlocks and mages, you can…Easily.

  50. 51 Minsom February 2, 2008 at 9:43 pm

    Dear fellow DPSadins,

    It is great to log onto this website and see stories of where we are really excelling at what we aplly ourselves too. I throughly enjoying playing my pally to its fullest benefits and even enjoy it more when we can turn around and show the “nay sayers” that we are worth the shot and hold our own in any facet of what we do. I’ve had at alot of Pally blogs/site and forums and read great stories of where a Pally tank is excelling where our Druid and Warrior brothers/sisters would normally pull up aces, also where Holy pallys topping healing charts and now its great to see that there is now a slow acceptance to Retribution Pallys in the world of raiding.

    What I would like to see is a Retribution pally who has seen the end, basically been to Mount Hyjal and Black Temple and seen Illidan fall. That would be great to see. I know the potential of this class see great things for us. I think we are all striving to be the best we can be and I think Retribution will soon never be associated with lolWTFROFLLMAONOOB..ever..

    Lets keep forging ahead and see where we can push this spec to and beyond

    Min

  51. 52 ophienicus February 12, 2008 at 11:18 pm

    alright finally someone who believes in ret pallies. . . i was holy from lvl 30-65 respeced tonight after i saw a raid video of a paladin criting 5k’s in karazhan i was surprised at how much fun questing became. i could kill virtually anything. . . atm though i am worried i am only lvl 65 so ppl don’t really accepted my dps i mean 1.9k whites at lvl 65 is good right. well anyway i was just wondering if you would take a look at my guy

    Ophienicus-Executus server
    oh and btw i did a group today of UB and came in #2 behind the damn mage beat the shaman and Spriest though. . . just leave some comments about him plz i would really appreciate it.

  52. 53 ophienicus February 12, 2008 at 11:30 pm

    typo–1.7 whites(crits) got 1.9 crit Crusader strike + alot more from SoC

  53. 54 The Almighty Gigglen February 27, 2008 at 7:28 am

    Ret pallys pwwwwwn. there is no reason why people should exclude you from a group because your ret. screw all you who dont invite me. your bad:PP

  54. 55 killkenny February 28, 2008 at 3:35 pm

    ya i have a 54 ret and i crit at about 500 to 1050ish (have the epic from ZF for lvl 50) and i was holy befor that and you guys sond like you cant lvl as a holy i went from 20 to 48 in 5 days buy grinding and i did not die much i took on a bout 4-6 at a time and you protc pallys act like holy cant what is the point of that a well geared holy pally could win a duel anytime over you so i dont get what your point was so ya

    and my toon is

    dragonforrce i am a BE pally in kill jaeden

  55. 56 killkenny February 28, 2008 at 3:36 pm

    did this in comp class so sorry for the miss spells and i sit buy the teacher hahaha

  56. 57 Minsom February 28, 2008 at 9:25 pm

    I leveled as holy from 48 to 70, its not the most ideal spec to lvl but it is a sure fire way to be able to take on mutlipe mobs and live. I’m pretty sure no one here is bagging out holy pallys, heck I would bet my left nut that we all vary between the 3 specs depending on what our respected guilds require. I for one still enjoy the healing game, but being Ret is soo much different and nice change. As for duels, yea we can duel, so what, a duel with a holly pally is like dueling with a resto druid; boring. Duels are not worth anything in my eyes…

  57. 58 killkenny February 29, 2008 at 3:03 pm

    No not all people can duel so some geared people will lose a duel because they do not know how to PVP… and with my ret pally i took on a lvl 53 protc pally and the fight lasted for a good 20 mins befor a 70 came along and killed me but my point is that people who know how to use there toons dont die ( im talking about pallys ) and even if you don’t have the gear you should not die fast as long as you have ok gear fights should last pretty long if your a bove 50 :)

  58. 59 killkenny February 29, 2008 at 3:08 pm

    With BC all people want now days are pallys and blizzerd has finaly made them evan with every one els and once again they killed the warrior class so pallys have steped up a big time wiht the new wow just as they will with the next one pallys will get better and better and you people that don’t agree you should not play and does any one know the rest of the new hero classes that are going to come out ?

  59. 60 meowmix420 March 10, 2008 at 4:31 am

    LoL at this entire page. More than 3/4 of all the DPSadin haters’ comments were written before paladins got huge buffs, especially in ret. So many of these arguments are null and void now but it’s still fun to go back and see that my class must have come a long way. Never be close to casters/rogues in dps at the end of a raid? Hehe… that’s very silly.

  60. 61 Helleborei March 10, 2008 at 1:05 pm

    What I’d like to see are some numbers on a comparison between SoC and SoB.

    As a blood elf pally, having Seal of Blood levels out DPS spikes and adds the benefit of self inflicted damage which in turn, through heals, is converted to mana.

    Any thoughts?

  61. 62 Minsom March 10, 2008 at 7:28 pm

    i wonder what Blizzard has in store for Paladins in the up and coming expansion, especially Ret pallys? What do you reakon guys?..We will see paladins restored to the Arch Type in the role model of Uther of the Silver Hand? I hope so. I would like to see more utility of some sort. Mayb along the lines of what they implemented in LOTR MMPORG, that whole moral system. Kinda like, if your a certain spec we could have an ability along the lines of a “Commanders Rally” that increases the stats of members around you for 20 yards or something. I know that sort of thing is already in the game from warriors and we also have our auras but dranie have the whole racial thing…Its just a thought..any other suggestions?

  62. 63 Partyvan March 14, 2008 at 12:47 pm

    Idiots. This game is swarming with idiots. I’ve got myself a circle of friends that run heroics with me and such. One of them is a tier4/5 0/21/40 warlock. He’s the only one who out DPSes me when I’m running as retribution with them. Unbuffed (I’m geared for pre-raids mainly because I can’t stand larger groups) I have roughly.. 2600 AP, 28% critical, 8.2% hit (overdoing it >.<), and my gear is, surprisingly, mostly epics. The only piece of PvP gear I use is the S1 gloves, so I’m not welfare gearing (Just sore luck with the Doomplate Gauntlets). I use the crit libram from heroic BF since, until it’s future nerf (To those who don’t know, the buff from the crit libram stays with you as long as you refresh a judgement), is a bit more useful than the 200 AP heroics libram I use. I’ve been thinking about changing my gems a bit since I’ve been using quite a few 8 AP / 2MP5 gems with my setup. The only thing I have from raiding is Despair with a Mongoose on it.

    Now, getting on to the idiots part that I mentioned first thing, my friends are in a guild and their leader is an elitist ignoramous warlock (I too have a warlock, my old main of 3 years) who insists that paladins can’t DPS and that they’re too gear reliant. With my pre-Kara gear and my Despair, I can crank out at most frequent about 700-765 DPS, give or take for lucky crit strings and trinket procs. The guild leader was saying over vent during the middle of my friends’ Botanica Heroic run that he needs healers for his guild and that they’re doing Void Reaver that night. I was being told that if I wanted to raid with them, I had to have a minimum of 1800 +healing unbuffed. Now.. here’s the funny thing: I never said I was interested in going at all since, ya know, I don’t like raiding. I was saying to him that I’ve got healing gear, but it only gives me 1250 or so and that my ret set is my best. Again, I expressed no interest or desire to go into a raid, even though it was offered, he scoffed at me over ventrilo and proceeded to call me a waste of a player. Now, he doesn’t seem to realize that 1) I’m not geared for T5 content, 2) I’m not -INTERESTED- in raiding content, and 3) I’m not going to leave my current guild just to heal for another one. He goes on, still, with other insults to say that paladins need to outgear what they’re doing to do any damage at all. That got me a bit annoyed, seeing as how that clown is in full T5 gear and ragging on paladins, saying they can’t do damage unless they outgear the encounters when I’m mostly in freakin’ Doomplate blues and rep epics. I also continued on with him that ret paladins aren’t “meant” to top damage charts. My personal view is that we’re a utility-DPS class instead of a pure DPS build. Now, if he had valid points or whatever, it wouldn’t have been so bad. All he did was say we’re gear dependant (Not in my experience..) and that judgements of wisdom/light/imp crusader aren’t worth keeping up. This is what is making me lose faith in players nowadays.

    tl;dr: Don’t knock it until you try it. Don’t be closeminded.

  63. 64 Minsom March 14, 2008 at 5:03 pm

    wow Partyvan he sounds like a top guy your GM *thumbs down*…

    I think pallys to some extent are gear reliant. To excel in one spec you have to devote yourself to that whole spec and focus fire at the stats that will get you into the upper levels of leetness. I’ve tried build a set for each spec (mostly unwanted raid epics, welfare epics (please don’t think less fo me =( ) and rep rewards. However, saying that it is pretty wrong for someone to put someone down due to the gear they wear and call you a “waste of a player”. Does he pay for your wow subscription? Does he pay for your internet connection? I think not. Play as you want to play, ignore all the non believers and if anyone starts to put you down look them dead in the eye..and bring your 2h Mace of leetness smashing into their skull..lol..

  64. 65 Leykis March 17, 2008 at 7:53 am

    *cough* 3 pallies means seal of light, seal of wisdom and seal of the crusader on a boss at all times (if 1 pally is ret). That’s like having a second shadow priest AND you also get increased crit. Oh yeah, 3 pally buffs and 3 auras. You had it right, let the ignoramus drown in a puddle of his own stupidity.

  65. 66 Holydance March 18, 2008 at 12:22 am

    Hello fellow retadins,

  66. 67 Holydance March 18, 2008 at 12:41 am

    hello fellow retadins! Its great to see a lot of us out there. My ret pally was born ret and all the way through 70 and love it. I read the posts enjoying most and figured i’d leave a comment of my own. I think its great to prove ourself as viable dps in raids, but i believe that too many people focus on being top of the charts. I’m a firm believer in the skill of players, as your class does by how well you know and play. As the several posts that persist on not possible to out dps AR rougues, thats not the topic at hand. Even if your not toping the charts every class still brings ability/dps/etc to the raid. Thats the beauty of multiple classes. Every class has pros and cons and benefits for everyone. Our posts are not to diss on every other class or to to say we are better dpsers, our posts are to simply influence the minds of the non-believers of our segregated class spec that we can dps and for the respect of our class spec that we diserve. With that said. have fun and enjoy, to all retadins and classes. And feel free to check my armory, holydance – kilrogg server.

  67. 68 Odins March 18, 2008 at 1:54 pm

    BYAH!!! Believe it! I’m running Kara as ret this friday and Im very excited.
    Check me up Odins-Frostwolf server

  68. 69 Ben Russell March 24, 2008 at 7:04 am

    @ Russell Weber

    “I’m having a hard time with your logics. How is holy damage not our strength? There is no defence for it, and considering that most paladins will spamm judgement of command it makes sense to atleast invest some into holy.”

    The logic behind this is simple. Since the last patch, SoC is based off of your melee attack power in proc. Stated in the patch note for 2.3 I believe. Therefore AP > Spell Damage for the procs with SoC. While there is no resistance for holy damage per say, exorcism, judgements, and holy wrath will all be occasionally resisted. the difference between us as paladins and other players as mages is that if their frostbolt gets resisted, they just pound another one out almost instantly, where we have to wait between 8 and 30 seconds to do so again.

    However, I have at what I would call a “similar” gear level had a better DPS setting in Karazhan than a mage. What I mean to say is that my DPS number as per recount was approximately 30 dps higher than him. His Crits were larger than mine, but I crit more often, which raised my numbers. Sadly, the next raid night he outshined me by adjusting his spec a bit and came in and upped me by 22 dps as per recount.

    To the end of Ret Paladins being viable in end game content, we are very much so. Improved Santity increases ALL damage done by a %. Improved seal of the crusader improves crit by all abilities by 3% at max rank. Raid buffs from light to salvation. We are utility buffers, as well as damage increasers, and melee DPS all rolled in one tidy plate package. Sadly most guilds fail to see that even to this day.

    For those of you that continue, as I do, to bring the Retribution down… Carry on, and rock on :)

  69. 70 Leykis March 25, 2008 at 8:16 am

    Yeah, and 2.4 buffed both ret and prot. Holy Shock got more expensive, mana-wise, but also heals and hits for more. And oh yeah, our fear spell finally affects demons too.

  70. 71 Kilkenny April 7, 2008 at 7:40 am

    As a T5 now moving into T6 raiding ret paladin, i can safely say ret dps is FINE. Just get a enhancement shammy and make it lay down WF totem. With about 2.7k buffed AP and a weapon with about 125dps you can do 1k dps if ur hit rating is enough (get precision). Yes classes will beat you, but they dont bring the utility you do. And sometimes you will even be the top of dps. Ret is fine L2P all you QQ nabs. But i wouldnt go to any raid without my wf totems

  71. 72 Khans April 24, 2008 at 7:41 am

    On similiar lines with Killkenny I am a higher end retadin, currently looking at the last few bosses of BT and Archimonde in Hyjal. With the new badge axe I’ve been able to pull easy 1300+ DPS in a raid enviornment, and that’s plenty for where we’re at.

    Anyway just a respone to killkenny’s comment about WF. Windfury is a huge buff, but it is not *required*. At my current gear level windfury is giving me about 100dps, which is a *ton* but it’s only 1/13th my total. So it is not the end of the world if you don’t have it…but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t push for it lol.

  72. 73 killkenny April 30, 2008 at 10:16 pm

    KILKENNY GET YOUR OWN NAME LOL THATS KINDA SAD LOL JK
    but why would you use a name someone else uses on the same web page but whatever

  73. 74 Salud May 1, 2008 at 5:22 am

    @Kilkenny

    Which site are you talking about?

  74. 75 Philaster May 21, 2008 at 7:26 am

    Great article and comments. I may be the only one stupid or obsessed enough to have two pallies. A 68 Prot and a 65 now Ret. The 68 was my first wow toon and I really had no idea what I was doing, just that I loved playing a pally. For a long time he was Ret but at 60 Prot beckoned because I wanted to tank for a change. The second pally I created to help friends level because what is better than a mail covered healer when your buddy is still doesn’t how to play very well? But in the end I liked playing her so much that I just couldn’t stop. I respeced her at 40 to the Survivadin build and I can’t praise it enough. Couple that with engineering and you have an almost unkillable machine that can take on enormous mobs and still be the one standing at the end. Over 8 minutes of non-stop fighting is her record – the same fight I mean, multiple adds and mobs rezzing behind me. I know this because Divine Favour has a 2 min CD and I used it 4 times. But I’m here reading this page because I want to kill things quickly again and want to make sure that I get it right this time. I’m so tired of hearing that Pallies can’t do this or that in the game. I think that every class has it’s place and I don’t put down the others so I’m not sure why people feel that they have to put us down. I’m still getting told that pallies can’t tank when I know they can, and you always hear the “wasted spot on a raid” comment about the Retadin. My aim is to prove people wrong on both counts.
    Philaster/Panthæa – Dath’Remar. Despite my combined 133 levels I still regard myself as a noob. If anyone looks me up and has any suggestions, I’m happy to hear them, just remember, I’m still in the process of gearing them up.

  75. 76 Tobio May 23, 2008 at 8:41 am

    GREAT guide. Though my stats priority is a little different :s
    I currently play a 70 Ret Paladin on Caelestrasz, and usually top damage meters for the guild Kara runs, and most 5-mans. The only problem I’m having is those non-believers, giving me the oh-so-boring job of taking out the hatchers in Zul’Aman, resulting in me not getting as much damage in as those on the boss the whole fight.. they then tell me a I can’t do damage. I’ll prove myself yet!

    Oh, the pain of being burst DPS :(

  76. 77 Dëaken May 28, 2008 at 11:40 am

    Last time i did BT/Hyjal ret i was a little over 1000dps. my main spec is holy so the ret gear i have is not to great. If i did make a push to stay ret and pick up more ret gear i believe i could get close to 1.2-1.4k dps easy.

    To make a stand dpsing ret takes gear. as for me, my goal is 30%crit, 2000ap, 95+hit, and hopefully 6kmana unbuffed.

    Dëaken- Farstriders

  77. 78 Sinfury June 1, 2008 at 2:32 pm

    Yes they can do just as much dps as any other melee class. And yes they have awesome buff for the 5, 10 and 25 man groups. Here is the real problem for ret paladins. 90 percent of the time there already is holy paladins healing the 5man groups and 10/25man raid with the same buffs. So there goes half of your abilities / usefulness. Why have 4 or 5 of the same class (cause we can all agree that a 25man raid will have at least 3 pally healers).My beef is with holy paladins. Holy tree allows them to offer more healing and buffs than the Ret tree does in dps and buffs. Next time you log look at a holy paladin spec. there usually is around 20 point spent outside of the holy tree meaning that those 20 point can be spent to make the raid buffs/aura better or make the paladin more survivable. Ret paladins spend around 40 points in their spec not allowing them to help the group raid and still need the correct gear to maintain respectful dps. All guilds will gear up the tanks and healers over any dps class and rightfully so. The guild cant progress past the tanks’ and healers’ abilities. And so we are thrown to the bottom of the food chain when looting time comes. Now of course im talking about tier gear. We still have to roll against all the other melee in the raid, plus you usually can’t roll on mail gear or leather because that would be stealing (not that I would want leather or mail anyway.) I think that’s why most paladins go Holy or Protection and then greed roll on dps gear when they can. Most ret pallys will grind out bg gear and then enchant / socket to get +hit.

  78. 79 Minsom June 1, 2008 at 9:30 pm

    I have been a long time reader and also enjoyed posting in the thread. The last few weeks have had a turn for the worst with my goal to raid as Ret, I had to leave my guild. Its not the guilds fault, its a great guild however our goals where no longer alligned. It was stated that a Ret pally was not required so I had to move on and see if I can find a new home to try progress my goal as being a viable Ret pally. Hopefully my new home will be a different story and very much looking forward to raiding with the new crew.

    Anyway, I’ve had my little cry. So I will get into the meat of my post. I have been speaking to a few end game raiding friends about the role and responsibilities of a Ret pally and the best way to utilise them. In their opinion they are not a pure DPS class more a utility class. So the main objective of a Ret pally is not to vie for the top DPS spot but more or less buff the rest of the DPS classes so that they can get the “little bit extra” out of their class. Now this guide covers how to play a raid pally etc, however I would like to start a discussion on how to best utilise a Ret pally. I feel that we fall under the same category as a Shadow priest, enhancement shammys etc. Due to the fact that we can give benefits that are raid wide.

    Being able to keep all Judgements up on a target is basically the only function that a Ret pally has, doesn’t sound the benifical rite? Well, lets have a look at the judgements that can be potentially on the boss. The first one which is one of 2 slices of bread is Judgement of the Crusade. The tool tip says that you get a bonus with Holy damage, well the hidden benefit come with improves Seal of command that gives you and ur raid an extra 3% crit. Now, 3% crit is nothing to scoff at, that means that is an increase of 42% crit chance spread over 14 DPSers, right? The next one is Judgement of Wisdom. Now for all mana munchers, I included. A steady stream of Mp5 is pretty sweet. The best example I can give is probably the case of the loc. At a certain point a loc will have to life tap to regain mana. Now I’m not too sure how long that takes, have not really played that class. By taking the time out of a boss fight to life tap and take a health pot/stone they could have fired off a few more shadow bolts etc. This theory can also be applied to most range The last major one is Judgemetn of Light. Now the return for this is some what low. However, a little bit healing goes a long way to helping out the healers and it might just give them enough breathing room to get a heal to you.

    Now the majority of the threads here are all about maximum DPS and “Balls the wall” DPS that an indiviual can do. I feel as a Ret DPS the “Utility” tag is more fitting in a raid sense instead of a pure DPS class. You can still follow the conventions of a Ret pally set out in this guide and everyother guide on the web but bear in mind when you doing ur DPS rotations you are not only doing great burst DPS but u are also increasing the rest of the DPS up of the raid as a whole.

    Minsom – Aman’thul

  79. 80 Minsom June 2, 2008 at 5:42 pm

    “I think that’s why most paladins go Holy or Protection and then greed roll on dps gear when they can. Most ret pallys will grind out bg gear and then enchant / socket to get +hit.”

    I agree with Sin there. I had to build my Ret gear outside the schduled raids. So therefore teh only other option was to look at welfare epics, BOJ rewards, Crafted epics and rep rewards. I guess it can be (and was) a hard slog to gather gear it kind of makes it a little bit more special. Mayb I’m just being a little sentimental.

  80. 81 Ben (Zchlade of Frosthwisper) June 7, 2008 at 2:56 am

    WOW! Your specc is almost exactly like my ret offspecc (been a healer in raids, but like ret better). Only difference was that I put 2 points in Eye For An Eye instead of Imp BoM. That was probably not the best idea, but even in raids there are spells that can crit, so it might help a bit :)

  81. 82 Brandon June 8, 2008 at 4:18 pm

    It has been stated before…. Rogues are suppose to be the #1 melee dps class and that mages are suppose to be the #1 caster dps class. However this doesn’t always happen as some people just know how to get the most out of their class & surpass the others.

    That being said I have 70: Hunter, Mage, Druid & Priest with a ret pali on the way. So I’m pretty open minded when it comes to classes. :)

  82. 83 Frank June 9, 2008 at 7:02 pm

    I was curious about your dps cycles for ret pallys. I know in healing, downranking spells help with mana effeciency for there are a lot of tables that show that. What scale of down ranking do you use for SoC? Consecrate? SoCr? SoB? or even Hammer of Wrath?

    When is a good time to utilize Avenging Wrath as well as trinket cooldowns? I know someone had a good idea of using a shield and one hander so the tank has initial agro in the beginning. But seriously, what one hander. But just writing this now, like a hunter feigns death in our guild to drop agro, I guess we could use divine shield when we do pull from the initial threat, but even then 12 more seconds and we’ll be back at the borderline with threat. I know there’s a potion you can get from sporegarr rep that reduces your threat, as well as a back from there that does the same (paired with sublety would reduce that greatly) But would that also be worth sacrificing the dps back for that reduced threat to keep you putting more hits on the target over all?

    At heart, I’m full ret and enjoy watching those string of crits in a row go off(recently in ZA off a trash mob watched 1.6k+2.1k+2.2k+1.8k mongoose proc)

    But to be honest, I’ve only pushed 715dps+/- in a raid. Where the locks, rogues, mages, hunters are usually pushing around 1100 to 1500 dps. Full ret does have a bad name and remember trying to get groups at 68 for dps and many times getting turned down.

    And as far as the reputation goes, ret pallys get shafted on gear because the “real” classes get priority on that gear. So in turn I believe there’s gotta be something wrong with my dps cycles, because otherwise I do believe we make much better tanks/healers.

    For I’ve played the 4 specs pallys can spec: Healer/Tank/Ret/Shock Recently I’m on a healing kick and escecially with spam healing an entire group/raid and not going oom (with no mana pots) with down rank’d heals and trinkets/41pt trait in holy. But along I have gathered my own sets up through the ranks of raiding and 5mans only to pushed into tankadin at lvl 68. With ret at heart tanking became boring and I gathered a nice set of Lamellar pvp gear for shockadin on the side of raiding. Mind you 4 sets of gear with each its own variance with two professions – I only have 14 slots at anygiven time to farm. Hence the rolling of another pally to do the same amount of work with more bag space for fun or laziness of not having to always maximize bag space. But even still, I’ve found it doesn’t matter with all the epics, skill will always prevail on your class as a tank/healer/dps. I still have yet to find the dps part. With shock, I’ve been able to stack, int +spl dmg gear to put out some beefy holyshock crits and SoR judgements(3870 SoR judgemnt pre-2.4 patch) but two spells and consecrate = oom shockadin in less than 60 seconds, even downranking doesn’t help that much. neither does a 2hr, although was able to push 660 dps in shock spec – but chugging mana potions like beer. So My sights are back on 41 ret pally. I’ve managed to get 4/5 t4 and don’t have to worry about hit rating, but now looking at precursors and trying to get a haste set gear. Not trying I push 600+/- dps utilizing the polearm off of mags. Prolly not the best, but 3 sockets for str and crit and the equip gives health (minor mana from spiritual attunement) does very nicely for the long run over the gorehowl.

    So what are the secret(s) to pushing over 1k dps is my real question without being forced to have the top/endgame dps ret gear?

  83. 84 Frank June 10, 2008 at 10:05 am

    By the way, Moobies and moobsjr on Bonechewer, time to time i will spec whenever and sometimes try out 0/40/21 spec that sometimes works like a charm if one gets ff’d by mele with spl dmg gear.

    But my last question 1k dps still stands.

    I’ve seen mages that only put up 500-600 dps out damage locks/mages/rogue who themselves push 800-1kdps.

    But my last question on 1k dps still stands. So what are the secret(s) to pushing over 1k dps is my real question without being forced to have the top/endgame dps ret gear?

  84. 85 Kaiseph June 10, 2008 at 12:17 pm

    After reading through most of the above posts, I guess I should consider myself lucky to have a spot in all of my guild’s raids. Our MT for most raids is a pally and he hates it if I can’t make it to a raid. Sanctity aura for a pally tank means the rest of the dps WILL NOT PULL AGGRO (if tank has plenty spell dmg). Not to mention the fact that the tank can judge with wisdom from the beginning instead of judging with crusader themselves to increase their initial aggro.

    As for maxing dps Frank, I currently use a combination of Gorehowl (with Executioner) and Hammer of the Naaru (with Savagery). I do not know where my dps currently stands (what program can register that for me), but I can often hold 2nd or 3rd on the dps charts if there aren’t any/many aoe pulls.

    I’ve played Prot, Holy, and Ret…..and I LOVE RET. If you love it, play it! Fine tune your skills. At some point, someone will grab you and see that ret is a legit path, and you bring so much more to a raid than a rogue or dps warrior.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Kaiseph on Kargath

  85. 86 Frank June 12, 2008 at 11:49 am

    Kaiseph,I have recount, it can measure the overall damage and 20 other things like healing or cc breaking. It will also show an average dps in parenthesis. Dps affects your overall damage, but only if you can sustain it. But I’m probably going to look for a dps meter that’s more real time than recount, granted having the overall damage in the end is what matters. It’s good to know along the way what happens while you’re trying out different weapons, gear sets and attack/spell rotations.

    Very true, ret pally brings so much more to the table than just good dps for raids. If I had it my way, the main group would be pally tank(devotion aura), ret pally (sanctity aura), holy pally(consentration aura), shadow priest(vampric embrace) and mele shammy (whirl wind).

  86. 87 pbob June 14, 2008 at 7:35 am

    I’m a ret pally myself.

    And i have to say that my versatility is pretty extreme. I easily aoe tank trash in hyjal and in BT, and i do around 1400 dps whilst keeping up judgements for the raid as well as buffing. Though what i do is extremely gear dependant, its foolish to say that ret pallys arent viable in an end game raid. I have no doubts when i see illidan die each week.

  87. 88 larry July 2, 2008 at 9:14 pm

    I am a holy paladin now, and yet i have toyed with all three specs enough to know a bit of them lol…(not being cocky).

    Personally I found that ret is the best spec to level, now I am not saying that holy or prot pally cant lvl, they can, and I level up my very first pally (have 3 in total) from 1 to 51 through holy, and this pally who is my main from 64 to 70 as holy.

    Its just that ret pally is soo much fun and because it’s the main dps spec of the paladins, the game really open up, no longer do you need to find a partner to group with when questing, (which is sometimes the case if you are a holy pally). And when the crit comes it is just sooo rewarding to see the 3k crit hit and stuff, esp in pvp, when the horde (alliance here) got owned by those crits.

    My advice for all the ret pally is that you should have a set of healing gear with you, and familiar yourself with how to heal. You never know what the situation requires you to do. Now I am a bit more fortunate, I happen to be the guild master of the guild (former GM decide to quit and he gave me the title), So the guildies has to listen to me LOL. Neverless, as a pally, being a hybrid class, I found that if you can react and change your job according to the situation, (i.e off heal when you need to, dps when healer is doing fine) then people wont call you noobs and they will actually reinvite you back to the group, and actually defend you.

    I know all your pain being a retadin, hell…I already lose count on the times the name of “omg, you are a retadin???? What a f***king noob etc etc”, but once they run with me, their whole attitude change and say ‘omfg…if it wasn’t for you back then…we would’ve wipe etc” The main thing for a pally, esp ret pallys is the ability to be able to adjust according to situation. In 5 mans as long as the tank and rezer (in a lot of cases, pallys) lives, even if the rest dies (chances are…clothes and leathers), the group is saved.

    Personally, I don’t like rogues in the group, they tend to be the ones that critize your spec and also tend to be the ones that whines and moans when they got one shotted, and say “its all your fault that I got to pay 10g of repair fee” and for all the people that wear plate, we all know that wipes happens and we all know that the main thing is keep the tank alive, and once got epics….lol…I think we all know how much our repair bill can cost up to.

    That’s my 2 cents anyway.

  88. 89 Darkness July 8, 2008 at 11:15 am

    My guild is currently progressing in the Sunwell. I play a resto shaman. We bring a ret pally and they are a huge utility class and benefit the raid. When you measure a pure dps fight like Brutallus they arent even close to the top of the dps meters. Everyone is talking about mages but they just cant hang with warlocks. Meters typically look like this:
    Warlock 1
    Warlock 2
    Warlock 3
    Rogue 1
    Rogue 2

    This is always consistant.

  89. 90 Lluna July 16, 2008 at 10:53 am

    I see a lot of you making statements about raiding, and focusing a lot on Kara… Kara is a perfect place for a ret pally, Exorcism and so much more..They don’t work in Gruul’s or anything above. I have a BM hunter 1900 ap, Warrior Tank 17k Hp 17 armor unbuffed, Shadow priest (+1300 spell and +2304 healing – when spec healing), a Boomkin with all gear types, blah blah blah.. I am a guild leader and I have given Ret pallys a try over and over, finally I made one everything after level 62 was really fun as far as dps, I found myself really wanting to see what I could do, I have been reading on Elitist Jerks and Ug for anything I could find that was unbiased.

    With the right gear any class can put out exceptional dmg, if you are topped off on your 2.3/2.4 badge gear, and better geared then your raiding party and your in kara, destroying a mage on the charts is easy, and probably very rewarding. The truth is, the longer the fight goes on, the harder it is for a Ret pally, Boomkin, and other types like that have of sustaining dps, where it is most important. A hunter, Rogue have nice fast white dmg when oom, same with feral druids and so forth, and the huge mana pools of mages and shadow priests sustain them a long time, not to mention evocation and a priest pet (Shadow fiend) for mana. In a perfect world you would be grouped with them, but this is not a perfect world.

    I want a unbiased product/spec as well as stats to offer myself and guildies, if I can make it work for them I will. I have been tanking,Healing,DPS’ng since the game came out so long ago, I am one of a few who wish to make his people happy if at all possible. I can’t do it if people do not put there pride aside and be honest, brutally honest, (The ret pallys) I don’t want to have to give ret pallys special concetions to make it so they are viable, I.E. Shadow priests, Shamans, and so forth, any dps becomes awsome dps, endless mana = unlimited dmg potential….

    Just the facts please..

  90. 91 Lluna July 16, 2008 at 11:05 am

    Btw…Larry, your post was excellent, it is exactly the way I see a boomkin druid, I never allowed boomkins to raid with me, then one day my wife decided we had to many healers and spec’d boomkin. I was mad but what could I do, she was 2200 bonus healing to 1200 bonus spell dmg, and she had like 14k armor, and she put out damage so well, and could backup heal with the best of them. She could battle rezz and innervate. Those utility classes that play selfless rolls for the good of the raid, can carry a raid. As long as you prove yourself useful, proving yourself on the dmg meter is only a plus.

    I want to see ret pallys useful, I want to use them, I just need to see someone do it, and still have mana to dps 10 minutes after they start fighting.

  91. 92 Leykis July 16, 2008 at 3:34 pm

    Lluna, as mentioned in the original post, I think you’ll see that a ret pally really isn’t about yellow DPS but white DPS and if the reports are accurate, this is being enforced moreso in the new expansion. This means that while mana will increase our DPS on longer fights, it is not where a ret pally will derive the majority of their DPS.

    As far as raid utility, a ret pally has no choice but to show that their group buffs are useful because gear and skill being equal, we’re not supposed to be the highest DPS class.

    Again, as the original poster mentioned, a ret pally will make everyone around them hit harder. Think of a Ret Pally as the hybrid of hybrids. They have a seal that they can judge that increases crit chance by 3% against their target. If you have 3 pallies in the raid, they can keep seal of light, seal of wisdom and seal of the crusader refreshed at all times (this is like having a lighter leader of the pack and having a lighter vampiric touch/embrace on the target for the entire fight). You also get a pally blessing and an aura for the group (maybe for the raid in the next expansion!).

    Some mobs do cast silence at melee DPS…that can depress our DPS somewhat, but if we are hit by something like a shadowbolt, it won’t affect our cast time like it would affect a caster class because our offensive spells are instant cast. We probably won’t hit as hard as an equally geared/equally skilled player but we provide an array of other benefits which allow us to improve purer DPS classes’ abilities.

    Just think about this 5-man group in your raid:
    Ret Pally (3% crit, aura, buff, can refresh other pally seals)
    Enhancement Shaman (windfury, other stuff but I got distracted by windfury *drool*)
    Hunter (ap buff)
    DPS War (ap buff) or put a combat rogue here for expose armor and similar group benefits.

    You hear that? All the Homerphiles just went “Ooooo!!!!” That’s a very synergistic group that will just thrive in a raid group. Put them up against a caster group of a mage, destro lock, elem shammy, shadow priest and boomkin and let these guys fight it out for the best DPS. Your tanks will be crying about not getting enough threat all night long.

  92. 93 RJ July 17, 2008 at 12:29 am

    Alright straight to the point. All these people that talk about rogues topping dps and mages being the strongest casters and ret pallies not being neccessary, you’re all stupid. I play a rogue 8/8 t6 (i know its not smart to do that but i wasn’t in line for the good off pieces) no warglaives unfortunately. A rogue can only top dps with very good circumstances on melee friendly bosses ie: Brutallus (stacked melee raid) teron, etc. Sometimes this even means REQUIRING WARGLAIVES to beat the hunters/locks. All these people thinking a kara geared raid in which a rogue wins, ultimately does not matter because in short time progression happens and soon it will be locks/hunters on top. Talking on the lines of dps possibilities, hunters have the most possible dps. In order to have them do this much dps you would have to stick them in a group that would not benefit the raid as much as opposed to leaving them in well made up groups. If you wanted to statistically do the math of how much a ret paladin’s total Raid DPS is its pretty simple, check a wws post for either a teron on brut for your guild that has a ret din in it. For my guild a brut kill is about 29800 dps but lets round it to 30k for simplicity. I would have to say at least 3k of that damage is not direct but over time so lets subtract that from the sum since it cannot crit 27000. Now divide that by the number of dpsers (we’ll say 2 tanks = 1 dps, only except classes are healers) for my guild we have 8 healers in a brutallus raid so that would be 16: 27000/16 rougly 1700 i’ll round up. So lets estimate that every dps class is doing 1700 dps of course its not like that because hybrids are buffing the pure dps classes. So if a ret paladin can effectively do at least 1700 RDPS then it would make sense to at least consider them. Alright so we now take 3% of 27000 and add it to whatever effective dps the retadin does, then we take the sum of 1700 x 4 (4 other melee) and take 2% from that for the imp sanc. 27000x.03 = 810 , (1700×4) x .02 = 136 810+136 = 946. Take note this sum of 946 dps is only the contributions of the JotC and imp sanc, coupling in the fact that they keep up imp JoW JoL you can theorize MUCH bigger numbers. So if a ret din can do 1k effective dps on brutallus then it would amount to 1946 RDPS. I would say that the effective mana that JoW gives to the caster and melee dps that use mana is at least equal to 1k dps so that would bring the grand total to 3k dps for a ret din on brut. My 8/8 t6 rogue with a stacked group only does 24-2600. So the real question is why is everyone crying about ret dins? The answer is they’re ignorant.

  93. 94 DrunkenPenguin July 17, 2008 at 4:31 am

    I believe in the retadin because I believe that Blizzard wouldn’t have made the T6 ret set without a reason.
    However I doubt that you talent build is very efficient for damage dealing.
    A few points that jumo out are these:

    You take improved devotion aura AND sanctity (aswell as improved sanctity) which means that if you use devotion aura, you waste 3 points on sanctity or if you use sanctity you wasted 5 points on devotion. Also devotion does not contribute to you damage at all
    You also get blessing of kings and 2 point in improved blessing of might which again is a waste of talent points.
    Another thing is the improved blessing of protection, it does not contribute to your damage either.

    I would recommend a build like this:http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sxVZZEf0x0cuiIot
    the 4 remaining points can be spent on divine intellect and/or vindication.
    Horde paladin should probably not use improved seal of righteouness because they have seal of blood.

  94. 95 Lluna July 17, 2008 at 12:54 pm

    Leykis thanks for taking the time to explain that to me, I took a T5 friend of mine who raids ret, and a t5 Rogue and I got my T5 Warrior tank and I Tagged a level 70 elite and let them both do white dmg. The Pally Put up Crusaders on the mob and used seal of Command on himself, and then just refreshed command everytime it was about to expire, doing only white dmg, The rogue simply started white dmg after the Pally started hitting.

    Pally was using: WorldBreaker, The rogue was using : “Talon of Azhara” and a 2.4 badge weapon.

    Pally had self buff Might on, Rogue had no buffs.

    The Rogue out DPS the pally by about 3x the dmg.

    We repeated this with a hunter simulerly geared and a warrior.
    The effects were almost the same except for the warrior, his dps was up and down do to procing Flurry or what not. The pally and the rogue and the hunter went all out on them for a while and there dps was fairly consistant the BM hunter remained at the top, Rogue fairly close, and the pally fairly close below.

    I managed to get alot of herbs saved up for pots while farming trees in Skettis for 3 hours, we went at it from many angles. Even the pally tried many different weapons, until he finally agreed that without mana his dps was gimp, even his “Crusaders Strike” was a massive dps boost that he couldnt use oom.

    Concidering that I am actually reading what you all are posting, and testing it, looking for the real numbers, and I have a great many friends who raid Ret, and there working through this with me. Please look at replying to the post from an angle of a person who has a char up to 70 and is dieing to raid Ret. Answer the above question on specs, and even rotations.

    An expamle, is one pally told me: Start of judging Wis then use seal of command , then CS, the Judge Command, then use seal… blah blah.

    Some say 10/0/51 others say 5/8/48 some go further into prot tree for Kings, cause there guild requires they have it.

    Stop being so critical of, I want info, not stuff like
    {RJ Says: you’re all stupid}

    You dont have to convince me, just show me how, and save the numbers, I get the whole +hit and crit deal, not to mention Druids have Moonkin Aura 5% Spell crit, Leader of the Pack [everyone that crits heals themselves], Hunters Ferocious Inspiration 3% dmg boost,Trueshoot Aura 125 ap, Expose weakness about 150 – 200 Ap to Everyone in the raid, The list goes on and on, Thats not what I am looking at, the 3% crit means nothing to me, even the judging of wisdom (which is nice means little) Our healers do that already. Mold a mind that is willing to learn and try out what you throw my way. Point out mistakes but dont try to destroy my desire to work with you.

  95. 96 Lluna July 17, 2008 at 1:02 pm

    Question:

    About the whole mana issue, one of the pallys I know told me he carrys a quick 1 handed high dps weapon, when he goes oom, he said he takes off his big and slow 2 handed weapon, puts on the faster weapon, Judges Wisdom on the boss, and Crusader on himself, till he is half mana, he said he keeps up decent dmg and switches back to his 2 hander.

    Is this even practical ?

  96. 97 Leykis July 24, 2008 at 8:24 am

    I’d love to provide specifics, but unfortunately, I never really got into spell rotations with the ret pally from my old guild. I simply know that the melee group (usually group 2 in our raids) had a hard time keeping up with the caster group when the ret pally wasn’t there. And when he was there, the tank and healer groups usually complained about how stressful their jobs were when both dps groups were clicking. That said, a normal rotation will probably include judging seal of the crusader and then switching to SoC, judging that and casting crusader strike. Some rotations will also include consecrate, particularly when the pally pops their wings. Consecrate is however a major mana drain for the amount of DPS provided. I don’t think a ret pally would normally use consecrate unless they’ve popped their wings. And of course, once the boss hits 20%, the rotation will include hammer of wrath. I’ve also heard that some ret pallies go into engineering and use bombs as well.

    A ret paladin’s biggest benefit isn’t necessarily their white DPS, but the overall impact they have on the raid’s DPS and the raid’s overall utility. As such, if the raid’s average DPS is low…maybe you would be served better by a super stud in that DPS slot, but as your entire raid’s DPS gets better, the paladin’s raid wide benefits will outdo a single DPSers contribution. Also, with WOTLK, the raid utility of a ret pally increases, since their aura will apply to the whole raid (usually sanctity aura is only on the melee group since it is a talent down the ret tree) which will benefit pally tank threat generation even more and will increase each DPSers damage output thanks to the improved sanctity aura talent.

    See if you can compare a raid (with the same bosses) with and without a ret paladin. Compare the DPS, and of course not the damage dealt since that should be the same on any boss kill. You’ll see that everyone’s damage output will increase with the ret pally in the raid and that the increase in damage for your 14 DPSers should outweigh any downfall you might see in that one DPS slot.

    Now, I haven’t been ret since before TBC (and ret before TBC was a whole other ball of wax), but when I had mana issues, I’d equip my flurry axe and would judge wisdom and then cast the seal of wisdom. I could get back up to half mana pretty quick, so yeah…that’s one way to do it. Alchemist pallies will of course have less mana issues thanks to their alchemist stone.

    Hope that helps and sorry I can’t be more specific.

  97. 98 Skeptic July 24, 2008 at 7:53 pm

    Hm, kinda curious.

    I have a question for those ret pallies claiming to out dps mages, hunters, warlocks, shadow priests, and rogues. What kind of dps are you doing exactly?

    My guess is the mages, preists, etc. you are running with are either not geared well or don’t play their characters well.

  98. 99 Eldagrimm July 26, 2008 at 6:04 am

    This guide is good if you ask me, it helped me alot.
    im not playing on the normal server but even with that my crits went crazzzzzzzzzzzzzzy

    white 1700 yellow 1800
    >>>>>
    white 3500 yellow 4000

  99. 100 PsykoticFISTer July 26, 2008 at 9:15 pm

    I am currently a 67 Retadin and i just want to ask a question. Exactly what do i need to get in terms of gear to get higher dps? i know that there is a list in the guide, but im having trouble finding the gear. Can someone link examples of the gear need for a Retadin to pwn in terms of DPS? thnx

  100. 101 Josh August 3, 2008 at 11:28 am

    Ok. So I am tired of this becuase of all the people here beating down Ret Pallies (yes, I have a ret pally). Mt main is a t5/t6 mage so I believe I am a little bit qualified to speak about dps.

    Ret dps…. not the greatest. You may once in a blue moon top the charts though unless you are in hyjal or higher I think that is generally a statement on your group more than your dps. But at the same time, my baby t5 ret pally is only coming off at about 2050 atk pwr (completely unbuffed), yet he is able to dps in the upper to mid dps class in 25 mans, though are prowess does suffer in the 10-mans, unless we have a spriest.

    But now let’s talk about what really matters, as mentioned, our raid utility. I can be in the top 5 in dps rather easily, c’est la vie no big dieal. But let’s compare what I have to offer on my mage as opposed to my ret pally to a raid.

    My mage:
    High dps (depending on fight between 1000-1100)
    Scorch debuff… only helps locks and mages really.
    Arncate Brilliance: Yay mana for everyone, does not afftect roges or warriors

    Summary, high dps and copmpartmentalized raid help

    My ret pally:
    -1 aura… usually since I run with a pally tank it is sanc aura (meh kinda helps)
    -1 buff, usually might on the melee and wisdom on the casters (dps buff majorly for both, ya i think so) is my assigned buff
    -Imp. JoC….. do i really need to even clarify this?
    -BoW ready and waiting for one of those lovely cats without a threat meter (which I inevitably pop 3-4 times during any raid
    -Healing gear- my healing gear is arguably better than my ret gear, when I need to I can step back for a fight and work with 1546 + heals in ret form and raid heal or be a strong second healer for the tanks.
    -One thing that is never mentioned… our taunt if a squishy pulls aggro (which speaking from a mage pouint of view… can happen due to crits or a suden drop in tank aggro) we can taunt most mobs away from the caster and have a better shot of living through it than a lock or mage, and thus heloping the raid by leaving a pure dps class alive
    -Divine Intervention – wipe proofing a raid
    -Finally my dps, which opffers between 700-850 depending on the fight

    So I ask you which one my toons would you like in a raid with you?

  101. 102 Josh August 3, 2008 at 11:42 am

    By the way, if ret stay like it is in the beta…. bye bye ret haters hello to everyone wanting a ret pally in every group!

  102. 103 Tamalt August 12, 2008 at 8:49 am

    OOOOOOOOK so this is just awful… Stack AP and get enough +hit to never miss thats important yes… as far as crit… 30% is even a little too much more than you need… Get mongoose on your weapon and get about 28% crit and the increased damage will almost Always be up… OK so now that thats out of they way Spell dmg is the VERY last thing a ret pally has to worry about you should have anywhere between 0 and 0 spell dmg and that is still too high! I dont get into all the math about this game but i know how to play my ret pally well. With a good enhancement shaman i pull almost 1100 dps in a raid and i am in ZA/Badge/TK/SSC gear and like one piece from Hyjal. While a ret pally in a 5 or 10 man isnt needed it wont hurt either you just have to get a good one. Just listen though most people who play pallies dont try hard enough to do good damage they are ret because they cant tank and they cant heal… so why are they ret? beacuse they are LAZY! you think they will be good dps if they are lazy? NO. Dont group all of us ret pallys together. In 5 or 10 man im ALWAYS on top by over 5% no matter what yes its true. Hit rating is over what is needs to be and unbuffed AP is 2445 with a 29.35% crit… Fully buffed and everything in a 25 man with my guild im easily over 3k AP and sometimes up to 38% crit or more depending on what you call “fully buffed” just PLEASE remember something about ret pallys… you are either REALLY bad or REALLY good there is no average ret pally and thats a fact.

  103. 104 Thorax August 22, 2008 at 8:41 am

    Ret paladins don’t go oom unless they are idiots , JoW and an occasional pot keeps you going , downrank to lvl 1 SoC and don’t judge too often . You don’t lose that much dps in the end and your overall damage will increase because you have more mana to work with . You may lose some dps by not judging crusader if no other pala can provide the JoW , but i’d rather have some mana to spare for the occasional offhealing if the healers are slacking .

    Don’t spec full warrior dps gear , and for the love of god , don’t socket with spelldmg ( yeah i’ve seen ret’s with those) . If you want spelldmg , go prot !

    My advise would be to take full plate gear (unless you get a huge dps boost ) and bring a shield with you . make a macro to pull aggro and switch to shield and taunt when a clothy pulls aggro . You won’t last long , but you just might have saved the life of a real dps class or healer . BoP is a lifesaver on melee bosses , you just saved another casters life . that’s 2 lives you saved now , assuming the mob didn’t kill you when you pulled aggro XD

    Don’t be afraid to roll on some tanking or healing gear , after the tank and healers ofcoarse . They might come in handy .

    Ret paladin heals suck! they drain like 1/6th of your mana pool if you use holy light , bring bandages for endurance fights , save mana to offheal the tank when the healers are having issues or a cleanse when needed . Not everything is about numbers , cleanse won’t show on dps or healing charts , but it saves healers from having to do it and it’s only one press of a button . LoH is a last resort , but better an oom ret pala then a dead tank ! 3 lives you just saved .

    Sadly almost nobody notices that ! I usually get scolded because I was oom ( by the LoH ) and my overall dmg was not at its maximum potential .

    Sure , feral dps druids can heal and tank , boomkins can heal pretty good , shadowpriests can heal pretty good , even a class that is a lot like ret , enh shaman , can heal better then ret , but paladins are life savers , an OH NOEZ class with decent enough dps , overall some of the best buffs in the game and BoP , plate to pull aggro, cleanse and LoH. And if everything goes wrong , Divine Intervention on a resser saves you the walk XD ( or bubble heart if all else fails )

    That is what a good ret paladin brings to a raid in addition to buffs and decent enough dps . But people fail to realise that due to incompetent ret paladins who don’t even know what cleanse is .

  104. 105 Fiercediety August 24, 2008 at 11:17 pm

    Ok … i know this may be a late post, and someone might have already covered the topic, but Lluna … the usual spell rotation for a boss fight would be

    Seal of the crusader
    judgement
    seal of command or blood
    crusader strike
    judgement
    seal of command or blood
    crusader strike
    judgement …. etc

    [ always have seal up before you crusader strike ... for the extra dmg proc ;) ]

    avenging wrath should be used when the tank has a good amount of aggro … the sooner this happens, the better … cuz you may have a chance at two AW’s :)

    anywho, got my holy set epic’d out, prot set epic’d out … and my GM is allowing me to go ret .. im so gonna gorrilla-stomp our other dps lol.

    – Fiercediety , Smolderthorn

  105. 106 Subtotal September 1, 2008 at 8:23 pm

    I’d just like to make a few comments of my own, based on what i’ve seen here (and a few of my own thoughts)

    To the person who said there’s no place for ret in 5 mans if theres a holy pally: Pally buffs are unlike those of any class (except shammies :D) so the more pallies the better in terms of buffs.

    As far as specs, i have tried all three pally specs. 1-62 as ret, 62-70 as prot (meh) and raiding as far as SSC as holy. So I do know what i’m talking about.

    Don’t get me wrong, holy is nice (with 2k +healing) and prot is ok, but you just can’t got past running up to something and whcking at it with a 2-hander IMO.

    I think the real issue with ret pallies isn’t so much ret pallies as the way people see group roles.
    Traditionally people see tank/dps/healer CC is a bonus. Unfortunately in reality DPS isn’t an absolute like it is for tanks and healers. In all fairness you could (and probabaly should) break it down into pure-dps and utility-dps. Admittedly there’s going to be a grey area between for a few classes for things like buffs/CC, but face it, you don’t bring Spriests/Dps-shammies/boomkins/etc for pure dps (although a skilled player with the right gear can do very well).

    The fact is, in any class that has a healing tree, you’re going to be utility DPS, it doesn’t matter how much pure damage you bring to a raid because of all the other things, i’ll even give you a short list:
    -off healing/tanking
    -Buffs
    -totems/auras
    -Melt face (mind flay :D)
    -Battle res/innervate (druids)

    sure all most of these benefits could be had from the healers/tanks. but how many of those do you need in a raid? The classes i consider utility DPS have higher survivability and more options than just dps. Don’t get me wrong, you still need ‘pure’ dps; but with ‘utility’ dps sprinkled through a raid they go alot further…

    BTW, for the record: i intend to go ret as mainspec in WotLK and stay that way through raiding

  106. 107 Jckhammer September 11, 2008 at 11:29 pm

    hmm what do we have here
    a ret pallies guide ooh god i like any paladin spec tbh i dont like to play them but i like to have them with me .. the greatest buffs in the game.. and the best healers imo cuz they are not 1 hitted :P

    anyway we are talking about ret pallies i hear a good news in wotlk blizzard made a mistake in bc but i think they are now lemme say fixing the ret pally.

    and btw who said that the ret pally isnt good at high-end raids .. im a fury warrior and my best friend is a ret pally we both raid bt-mh t6 content and his dps is verygood but not comparing to the others like mages locks rogues ..

    nothing to add just wait till wotlk and goodluck :) my best wishes to all of you and plz blizzard no more nerfs lets all play and have fun
    Piece

  107. 108 Spooney September 15, 2008 at 8:17 pm

    I have been a ret paladin for two and a half years now. I have not had any other characters, and never in my life been holy – it’s just never appealled to me. The guide for ret paladins was useful for pointing people in the right direction when they begin. However, reading all the comments and everything else I had to share my views.

    Ret paladins are gear dependant … up to a certain point. I do not mean here that to be good you have to have full T6, on the contrary. I believe that you have to select gear specifically and carefully based on your needs.

    I use the welfare badge rewards from heroics and random epics from the likes of ZA, the crusade card deck etc. For me personally this is great, mainly because I do not raid and will not even come close to owning T6. However, I have found many benefits using this gear. Being hit capped immediately (I think I have about 12% but cant remember exactly from the top of my head), it allows me to focus on all the empty gem slots, adding +str and +crit, and there are ALOT of these. This, plus enchants dramatically increases all my stats and makes a huge difference – there are no slots wasted on +hit.

    Also, another advantage of this gear being hit capped, there is no need to spec the 8 points or so in the prot tree for precision. Instead I choose to spend it in the holy tree for much needed intellect, which comes in useful for long boss fights. My PvE spec is 10/0/51.

    I won’t lie and say I was immediately accepted as DPS on my server, it took 2 and a half years of hard work to finally be accepted. Believe me I got enough of the ret stigma on the way “lololoret. NO”. Now I am pleased to say I will most likely be top or second on damage meters in groups, unless they are T5/T6 casters, i.e locks or mages in great gear. On the occasional raid i do, I am normally in the top 6, depending on the fight. I noticed fully buffed and food etc i had 1150ish strength and 4000ap, which is quite good for a ret paladin in my opinion…I can hold my own on the damage meters especially if i have a shammy in my group.

    Anyone who says paladins, if they have the right gear and skills, will always be top of the meters is lying. Paladins are a supporting class. Any good ret paladin should know this, and should not be in denial of it. However, I’m not saying that paladins are never top – sometimes it can happen and we can be depending on the fight, like Brutallas for example.

    But we bring so much to the raid, extra damage, extra blessings, auras plus on top of that, we can hold our own on damage, that it is better to take one of us to the raid for overall raid benefit and performance than if they were to choose another melee class. This is what we do best:support the raid.

    Being ret does not take much skill, admittedly its basically 3 buttons. To be good at a paladin does however mean you need to know and understand what you can and can’t do. When you accept these facts, you become good.

    Note: sorry for any typos, it’s quite late.

  108. 109 Utheran September 19, 2008 at 3:33 am

    Cool mate i am a meeel dps paladin to and i must say u have cool ideas for us:P.In all the raids my guild Righteos Fury svr hellfire invite me beacose i can beat a rogue at dps easy:P but i am the second at dps in guild a hunter is more good then me:(but i hope with your help i will do more dmg:P

  109. 110 Ahravan September 23, 2008 at 7:42 am

    I read many posts but not all and skimmed the rest and didn’t notice and thought it should be mentioned that with the spec in divine strength that the 1str jumps to a 2.2 AP bonus and one agi is .04 crit and one crit is .045% if that helps anyone out.

  110. 111 Evishop September 26, 2008 at 8:47 am

    I’m not entirely sure why people are thinking Ret pallies are REALLY REALLY good at DPSing… they arent.

    I’m a fury warrior with T4/Badge/Heroic gear and can out-DPS a T6 Ret Pally 10/10 times.

    And… Rogues ARE the #1 DPSers in the game… of course so long as they dont suck :P

    I do have a ret pally (Level 67 at the moment) and the DPS is gimped… I can out DPS my ret pally (going through the full DPS cycle) with a HOLY PRIEST that is level 66.

    I’m stoked for Divine Storm though… that will help Ret pallies out so much… I can see them being in the top 3 classes for DPS (Rogue>Hunter>Pally)

  111. 112 lulwhat September 29, 2008 at 10:49 am

    WoW so many bads on here.
    Its not very hard to dps as ret tips:
    Spec Correctly
    SoC if Alliance SoB if Horde
    Hit(till cap)>Str>Agi>Crit
    Make sure u have decent gear before attempting retdeeps or u will fail guaranteed
    Dont use spell damage, that is for retards only leave it for them to experiment with and fail.

  112. 113 Apparition September 29, 2008 at 4:02 pm

    Actually hunters and rogues are basically neck-and-neck in T6. But yes, ret pallys are not close in DPS. If you’re a ret pally braggin about being number 1 DPS in the raid, your raid sucks.

    Ret pallys are just like spriests. Now you be a good lil paladin and keep wisdom up, k?

  113. 114 Leykis September 30, 2008 at 2:28 pm

    A ret pally will never judge wisdom on a mob. I hope that’s not what you mean.

  114. 115 Krystyne October 7, 2008 at 7:35 am

    Hello everyone,

    I have just stumbled across this site when searching for some tips about how to do ANY dps with my 60 ret pally.

    My poor little BE pally has just turned 60 after a very long road, it started as my first toon 18mths ago when I started playing, got it to 20 and hated the damn thing, no one told me about judgements and I did not read anything about how to play, silly silly me.

    Anywho, a week ago I decided I couldn’t be bothered doing anything much with WotLK comeing so I decided I needed to level my 7th 70 and the pally won the draw, respecced prot and went on a rampage for a week and finally made it to Hellfire.

    This is where it all changed, I needed to do more dps, hmm, let’s respec ret, that’ll work, uuummm, nope, I have no idea how to play the damn thing now. I have 2x 70 warriors, a holy priest, warlock, rogue and a hunter, I have some idea about how to play the game and do not PvP in any form, nor have I had the chance or time to raid anywhere to get any Tier anything so comments about how much dps a T6 toon can do are pointless, not alot of us are in T6 gear and even fewer of us ever will be.

    I look forward to seeing if any of you can give me some tips as to how I can help out in the normal 5 mans and survive a bit longer when solo questing, I have a tank and a healer so neither of them are an option, I just want to get to 70 before the exp comes out.

    I must say, I will not bother coming back to what seems to be a wonderful place for pallys if I have to read even one more “I can out dps you” comment, these comments just prove how childish you are and go to show the rest of us that you have just come out of your last bg and think you’re the best player around.

  115. 116 Atsa October 22, 2008 at 8:31 pm

    after skimming for things about ret, i came across this.

    all i can say is damn straight.

    im ret. and yes 3.0 made me awesome. i ran ZA today. and for only have some kara drops and some H drops. i was #2 dps. secong only to a T6 lock.

    to all my fellow rets. give em hell!!!
    and i personally apologize to all spriests for stealing your raid utility.

  116. 117 ereka November 2, 2008 at 5:44 pm

    I was born a ret and i will die a ret!!!! =P

  117. 118 Joe November 4, 2008 at 8:58 am

    Listen…to all you fellas who want to be ret in raids its a piss in the park…listen…ur key roles to look for in your armor would be
    priority listed from greatest tro least
    + atk power
    +strength
    +agil
    +int
    you dont need all that +sp bullcrap because of the dmg ur doin with REGULAR attks..not judgements…judgments have a 8 sec cd or some bc like that…you can be doin more things in that time than the xtra little 50 dmg to judge.
    I’ve started ret and I will be ret forever and not change…its the only thing i play my pally for…he’s my main and i won’t let him down.
    Look if you want to compare a lil…think bout this…in MH my pally was doing the most DPS (1869 DPS) out of ALL classes…sometimes they would out dps me at times cuz of the AOE’ing and such but i out do them at dmg overall and dps overall when averaged…people say do certain dmg rotations but i say just have fun and click the button that just showed up….thats it…now if u wanna see em go ahead…hes on wowarmory.com …. name is Mylileunich

  118. 119 Vodkadin November 11, 2008 at 6:05 am

    Levelled back and forth between prot.
    Gear you want is Mainly Str Agi Stam.
    if youre looking for that xtra bit of pwnface in your judgements, grab sheath of light and stack it with Seal of Blood. I suggest only doing this while grouped considering you take dmg based on your dmg dealt. Here is an example of Vs. Judgement crits:
    Crit JoC = 1500, Crit JoB – 2000. (Added spl power from AP = 420)

    Another thing, to all you R tards stacking crit gems. Uneccesary.
    Think about who you group with 1st, Feral druids +5%crit, Fury warriors +5%crit, Arc mages +3% crit.
    If you dont know what other classes can do in raids then maybe you shouldnt be in the raid.
    What you do want, is +hit. The current ret tree doesnt boost any of your +hit which makes gemming it a must. You wont be getting your maximum dps output if youre not hitting anything amirite? for lv70 it would seem 120hit is essential to aim for.
    Feel free to armory my paladin but to be honest i just respecced from prot so my gear is a little weak.
    My main is çarerra if you need me to prove that i know what im talking about and im not just talking out of my ass
    Shat Hand~ Vodkadin (Pally) çarerra (Mage)

  119. 120 drunkinelf November 11, 2008 at 6:11 pm

    While rogues are good dps, they are not topping hunters anymore. Locks are now nerfed after being OP for so long. Ret pallies finally got the buff they deserved. Hit, str, and crit are what you want. IF you are not hitting a target then your dps=0. After hitting your hit cap, you want str, not AP. Why? Because str scales with kings, while AP does not. 30% crit is needed to keep up Vengeance, which needs to stay up if you wanna dps. Judging Seal of Light is gonna up your aggro a ton, so don’t. Judge wisdom. The prot pally should judge light. The effects don’t stack anymore so only 1 of each is sufficent. If you armory me, i will probably be prot, since that is my raiding spec. And you dont need to worry about other classes buffs to make your crit rating, do it before thier buff, then what you get will just be icing on the cake

  120. 121 Leykis November 12, 2008 at 9:39 am

    *cough* Demonology Locks are still quite powerful. If I get a healer behind me, I can put out 100k damage in 15 seconds and blow up an AV turtle. It has been done and the damage measured. After sacrifincg my felguard for the extra DPS boost, I pick someone at the back of horde pack and cast seed of corruption, then I pop demon form, turn on my aura and charge. I tear through the whole group, doing 500 damage per second from the aura to about 10-15 people. Then I just spam seed of corruption. 2k approximately every 3 second to each target. healer keeps me alive and unbanished/unfeared so I can continue my dirty work. Once I lose demon form, I tend to go down fairly quickly, but by then the dabage was done. Anyone under 10k health is dead and the turtle is broken.

  121. 122 KolorBlind November 14, 2008 at 5:58 pm

    We are talking about raid DPS here Ley.
    I too have a 70 lock and he is demo/dest atm, which is the only viable spec until wotlk dungeons start getting harder. Things die way too fast for aff to compare, but I believe it will be the top dps spec at 80.
    If you keep your FG out, and attacking while you keep up corr & CoE, just spam SBs and you can easily stay over 1k dps. Sad thing is with less spell dmg and 0-21-40 spec pre 3.0, I was doing about 1300-1400, but oh well.

  122. 123 Adam November 15, 2008 at 11:09 pm

    I have a lvl 37 ret paladin, and i spend a lot of time pvping on battlefields. I will, quite often, out damage every other person on any given battlefield. I’ve soloed 3+ lvl 39 pvp opponents at once, on numerous occasions and come out the only survivor. I also rarely have trouble in instance groups because i can handle aggro better than other dps classes, i do a considerable amount of dps, and i can heal/res others when necessary. Retribution paladins rock, at least at my level. That said, i see how many ppl dislike ret pallies. I am successful mostly because i have good gear. A poorly equipped retadin could be pretty useless in a pvp or instance group. From my experience, no class is better than any other, they’re each skilled in certain areas, but they balance to be equally useful. However, there is no other type of character that can kill stand still and watch a higher lvl rogue kill themself by criting you too many times and feeling the backlash. I average 300 dmg per hit, and i’ve crited 700+, which is awesome when most opponents have around 1600 health. That doesn’t include the 30+ dmg an opponent recieves just for attacking me. I’ve killed opponents in 2 hits, which makes pvp pretty easy. Groups that discriminate against retadins simply don’t know what they’re missing. Of course, endgame i’m painfully ignorant. There’s 40 lvls of gameplay i have yet to explore now that WOTLK is out.

  123. 124 Pierre November 20, 2008 at 6:51 pm

    What you guy have to understand is that Raid encounters all depend on the grp, If you have a Pally tank mages and ret pallys can generally push more damage due to there aoe, if your raid consists of lots of single Boss fights and CC Pull Rogues can dominate the dps table, If its a good mix of both Ret pallys and Locks can do a fair bit. Also if all the pally buffs were only applied to the pallys in a raid it would change the Damage output dramatically.

  124. 125 Possession January 2, 2009 at 4:48 pm

    Most people posting are simply retarded. You didn’t have to be a hardcore raider to get t5 or t6, and even then, most guilds ran with one ret paladin. The ret paladin isn’t made for straight sustained dps, they provide support to the raid through buffs and judgements. Have you even seen an Enhancement shaman topping meters in a 25 man? No. They are also there to provide raid support with totems and their AP buff. My guild, and the other top 5 guilds on server all have one ret paladin they bring to raids. Since when was an extra buff, more mp5 for all dps through Judgements, and not terrible dps a bad thing in raids?

  125. 126 Hagrin May 29, 2009 at 1:32 pm

    Oh wow, i remember when i wrote this, but guess what? I was right haha, todays ret pally is exactly this…

  126. 127 alex July 23, 2009 at 7:45 am

    your spec link comes up empty. makes the guide a little less informative without the spec lol

  127. 128 marshall August 22, 2009 at 11:59 am

    I was not able to get your talent tree specifics – it just shows an empty tree from your link – would love to see it as have been slow in realizing the issues for my ret pally and you seem right on – so would love to see your build

  128. 129 tendo October 18, 2009 at 3:03 am

    Wrath of the lich king is out. i have a lvl 80 ret paladin, not fully geared.
    i must say anyone who dont accept a ret pally in instances, raid, are just plain stupid. ret pally dont need spell power, attack power increase theyre healing now but less. u get to cast flash of light instantly everytime u crit, which is every time u slash something lol. when my group in trouble i dont even need to switch weapon i just heal and the group survive as long as the fight dont last too long. so its realy easy. at the moment i currently crit about 2300-3000 i can deal about 8-9k dmg in 3 sec on my best times. in heroic i dps about 1700, its kind of low yes, but i heal about 600-700hp all group member each time i use divine strike, i can heal 1700(3000crit) hp instantly every 2-3sec. my party or raid member get 3%more dmg and 3%haste & spell haste.

    so far i have ran arround 5-7heroic… saved my group 2time becose either the healer died or tank died.

    ret pally are a great asset but still arnt nessecary. if u have a great healer and a great tank… u could replace the pally by any other dps and it would work out.

    pally always been a *support* class and will probly always be.

    my final words.

    ret pally dps 7/10
    ret pally heals 8.5/10
    ret pally buffs & aura 10/10
    ret pally survivability 10/10

    exemple rogue or mage. (R&M)
    (R&M)dps 10/10
    (R&M) heals 0/10—Z——E——R—–0——-
    (R&M) buffs 5.5/10(arcane buff from mage usefull but still nothing that special)
    (mage) survivability 2/10.(they pull aggro they die)
    (rogue) survivability 4/10 (they are a bit more resilient then mages but faar FAR FAR from tank)

    as u can see rogue and mage outdps a ret pally considering they are as good geared but the paladin wins in survivability and support.

    that is all thanks for reading . and plz remember that ret pally arnt 100%dps more like 70%dps-30%backup.

    later.

    The Forgotten Coast Us alliance. Tendo.

  129. 130 Marko_Hadri May 17, 2010 at 7:14 am

    Ret Pala’s are maybe not the greates but sure are pure fun. ppl can laugh @ my red, blue and green gear @ lvl 65 but I allway’s find a new way 2 kick their ass :) and/or make a last stand while the rest of PUG is down on the flor making coments who’s foult is it that they are dead and not me. Healer dont need him, DPS got it, tank I can Tank any time any where for any1. Palas will make that somethime small contribution 2 a group but it is usulay the 1 that makes that boss fall down :)) therefore long live the first knight of the alliance.
    bb all

  130. 131 Guy July 18, 2010 at 4:58 pm

    Very helpful…my paladin is gonna get dusted off this week


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